Does hell really make sense?

[kentonio]

The issue is that even the most perfect deeds that men can do, is still quite imperfect. They still do evil, still sin.

The wonder of Christ is that He forgives us, His righteousness covers us, and we are fine due to His righteousness, not our own. Our deeds don't matter, because they could never make us fine.

Now if we have faith, the faith requires us to act. To do good deeds. If we refuse to, we are not keeping our faith, and are not following Him. And if we keep doing so, we are rejecting Him.

The Christian's path is one of often needing the forgiveness of Christ, and accepting it.

JM

Whoah there! What is the point in that?! Why would you create a world and say no matter how well you live, you're still bad? I assume this is original sin territory, but how can inheriting sin from previous generations in any way be equated with free will? Also how does that even make sense if each person is supposed to have a unique soul, how can one person (or two if we're going Garden of Eden here) screw up the deal for subsequent generations of souls?

I could understand a system that said 'do good things and you're following gods path regardless of faith' but saying that a lack of faith consigns you to eternal damnation regardless of a lifetime of good deeds seems sick, especially in a world where knowledge is regional. How is some native living in the rainforest supposed to have a chance at redemption when god refuses to show he exists?

[Barnabas]

Some things about hell

For Catholics, both Heaven and Hell are not the same for everyone, the saved get different degrees of reward and the damned get a different degree of punishment.
Limbo, something which I think no longer is believed, used to be considered as a part of hell much more pleasurable than life on earth, the idea was that people who commited no sins but were not baptized, for example aborted babies, would go limbo, a place in hell in which they would enjoy perfect sensory happiness, but not the highest form of happiness which is being in God's presence.

[Kidlicious]

If someone comes to your door and asks you to believe something that seems in a rational sense to be nonsensical, would you be happy to just believe that and suffer a horrible consequence if you didnt?!

With the issue at hand there are consequences even if you choose to believe. Christians make sacrifices. Those who choose not to believe make no such sacrifice.

[Barnabas]

Getting the message directly from a God would be preferable because humans are faulty and often believe things that are wrong, so there's plenty of room for doubting what a human tells you. The content of the message isn't the problem, I just don't find the delivery credible.

If Archangel Gabriel showed up on CNN and said Gay sex is sinful, would modern people accept it or try to discuss with the Archangel?

[kentonio]

How do you conclude it to be in a rational sense nonsensical when by this thread it seems to be reasonable to say that you haven't seriously considered it?

JM

I've considered it at extremely great length. The reason I used the word 'nonsensical' (and was torn about whether to use it or not for just this reason) was because god as a fresh concept if you haven't grown up with religion around you would seem wild and crazy. It was just a response to Kid seemingly saying that you should believe what you are told, it wasn't an attack on you guys beliefs. Apologies if it came across like that.

[kentonio]

With the issue at hand there are consequences even if you choose to believe. Christians make sacrifices. Those who choose not to believe make no such sacrifice.

What sacrifice?

[giblets]

If Archangel Gabriel showed up on CNN and said Gay sex is sinful, would modern people accept it or try to discuss with the Archangel?

They would probably be plenty of people who would argue with him, but also some people would change their mind and decide gay sex is sinful. So I think the choice of messenger does matter.

[Kidlicious]

Maybe it's beyond my capabilities to answer that question? I'm not going to just make something up if I can't figure out what the truth is.

Again, you're chhosing not to believe even though you don't even have an alternate explaination. It seems obvious that you just want to do your own will. No christian KNOWS anything, but he takes a leap of faith. He makes a sacrifice. You just say you don't know anything and go on doing whatever you want. Why would you not have consequences?

[Kidlicious]

What sacrifice?

My will. Isn't that big?

[kentonio]

My will. Isn't that big?

? So free will is the choice to give up your free will?

[Jon Miller]

Whoah there! What is the point in that?! Why would you create a world and say no matter how well you live, you're still bad? I assume this is original sin territory, but how can inheriting sin from previous generations in any way be equated with free will? Also how does that even make sense if each person is supposed to have a unique soul, how can one person (or two if we're going Garden of Eden here) screw up the deal for subsequent generations of souls?

It's not God's fault that we always screw things up. In biblical narrative that is given to Satan or our ancestors.

We deserve punishment due to our own sins.

We have in recent years gone away from collective responsibility, but throughout most of mankind's history collective responsibility was a well understood fact. What is your problem with collective responsibility?

But as an example, as being an atheist you are rejecting God, even if you were the nicest possible person to old ladies.

I am sure that the devil, at the time of rebellion, was a far nicer person than I or anyone I know.

I could understand a system that said 'do good things and you're following gods path regardless of faith' but saying that a lack of faith consigns you to eternal damnation regardless of a lifetime of good deeds seems sick, especially in a world where knowledge is regional. How is some native living in the rainforest supposed to have a chance at redemption when god refuses to show he exists?

A lifetime of good deeds? Am I good if I help a couple more old ladies across the street then ladies I push in the mud? The central problem is that a 'lifetime of good deeds' is not good at all. I do not know the exact definition of who has faith and who does not, or what faith is for all people and situations. I do know that if you do have faith in Christ, that that is faith.

JM
(Please recall that I don't believe in eternal damnation in the immortal soul variety)

[Jon Miller]

? So free will is the choice to give up your free will?

Yep. Because we get more freedom that way then we get by being opposed to Christ. Read some of Paul.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[b] Christ Jesus our Lord.

JM

[Jon Miller]

I've considered it at extremely great length. The reason I used the word 'nonsensical' (and was torn about whether to use it or not for just this reason) was because god as a fresh concept if you haven't grown up with religion around you would seem wild and crazy. It was just a response to Kid seemingly saying that you should believe what you are told, it wasn't an attack on you guys beliefs. Apologies if it came across like that.

I would recommend you consider it again, and this time read Paul and the gospels.

JM

[kentonio]

It's not God's fault that we always screw things up. In biblical narrative that is given to Satan or our ancestors.

We deserve punishment due to our own sins.

We have in recent years gone away from collective responsibility, but throughout most of mankind's history collective responsibility was a well understood fact. What is your problem with collective responsibility?

I have enormous problems with collective responsibility. Say someone walks up to you in the street, beats you to a bloody pulp and breaks both your arms and legs. They do this because your great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather did the same to someone. Is that fair? Is that just? I literally have no idea how christians can believe in collective responsibility and also talk about free will. How can you have free will, if you are paying for a thousand generations of other peoples sins?!

But as an example, as being an atheist you are rejecting God, even if you were the nicest possible person to old ladies.

A lifetime of good deeds? Am I good if I help a couple more old ladies across the street then ladies I push in the mud? The central problem is that a 'lifetime of good deeds' is not good at all. I know the exact definition of who has faith and who does not, or what faith is for all people and situations. I do know that if you do have faith in Christ, that that is faith.

JM
(Please recall that I don't believe in eternal damnation in the immortal soul variety)

What if someone literally does nothing but good practical deeds their entire life but has no faith? That suggests that faith is itself a good deed, and a more important one than any actual deed.

[Jon Miller]

I have enormous problems with collective responsibility. Say someone walks up to you in the street, beats you to a bloody pulp and breaks both your arms and legs. They do this because your great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather did the same to someone. Is that fair? Is that just? I literally have no idea how christians can believe in collective responsibility and also talk about free will. How can you have free will, if you are paying for a thousand generations of other peoples sins?!

You are not paying for their sins in the way that 'you deserve punishment because your grandfather hit my grandfather'. I could be wrong about this, by the way, I am not a theologian.

You are paying for their sins in the same way as I am paying for the people in the US behaving economically irresponsible for the last N years. Or that I pay for the US being belligerent in the last N years. Or that I pay for the pollution that my ancestors/etc/etc have been pumping into the environment.

Collective responsibility is a fact.

Or do you think that I am not paying for the above?

What if someone literally does nothing but good practical deeds their entire life but has no faith? That suggests that faith is itself a good deed, and a more important one than any actual deed.

But the issue is that it never happens. Anyone who is honest to themselves recognizes that they do wrongful deeds.

JM