Does hell really make sense?

[Jon Miller]

Well how can he on one hand not ask me to believe he exists, but on the other hand accuse me of rejecting him when I don't, and worse threaten eternal damnation as a result. That sounds completely callous.

He asks more than that you believe He exists.

JM

[Kidlicious]

What about a big bang? I don't think that has a lot to do with whether there is some creator of the universe who has a plan for it.

I'm asking you how you believe the universe exists.

[kentonio]

Free will means you can choose what to believe. Nothing is preventing you from believing except yourself, so how is that unfair?

Because you're being asked (or rather required) to make a vast decision based on a complete lack of verifiable evidence. There are a couple of billion muslims in the world too, am I supposed to somehow judge that they are all wrong but virtually the same message from a few billion christians is right? Free will is being given choice. By the addition of a horrible punishment for getting that choice wrong, it is no longer free will, surely?

[giblets]

I'm asking you how you believe the universe exists.

The wording in this question is ambiguous but I'm guessing you're asking me how the universe exists? I don't know.

[kentonio]

He asks more than that you believe He exists.

JM

So why is he asking first that people believe he exists, but then deliberately refusing to confirm that? You could make a perfectly reasonable case that choosing to follow a good path or not is a fair choice because you can weigh up both sides both morally and practically, but the existing thing just doesn't make any logical sense to me.

[Jon Miller]

But what about deeds without faith?

Deeds without faith is also bad, as we all do evil. People who are "good" are better than others in some fashion, but it doesn't stop all sorts of wrongness from existing within them.

Romans 3:
" “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[b] "

"21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

Romans 5:
" 6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

If you constantly excuse yourself, say that you do what is right, say that you do no wrong, I don't think it is possible for you to be saved. This is often a problem for Christians, actually.

JM

[Jon Miller]

So why is he asking first that people believe he exists, but then deliberately refusing to confirm that? You could make a perfectly reasonable case that choosing to follow a good path or not is a fair choice because you can weigh up both sides both morally and practically, but the existing thing just doesn't make any logical sense to me.

Many people who follow God cease having questions about His existence. It seems that when people are following God, they see evidence of Him and do not doubt. When they are not following Him, they seem to forget.

I have seen this in my own life, and the lives of those I am close to.

I think that God is fine with doubters, as long as they choose to believe in the end. Take the example of Thomas.

JM

[Kidlicious]

Getting the message directly from a God would be preferable because humans are faulty and often believe things that are wrong, so there's plenty of room for doubting what a human tells you. The content of the message isn't the problem, I just don't find the delivery credible.

So you're saying that the mssenger may or may not be true, but just in case he's false you are going to disobey the commands? That's a choice then, and you should agree to the consequences.

[kentonio]

If you constantly excuse yourself, say that you do what is right, say that you do no wrong, I don't think it is possible for you to be saved. This is often a problem for Christians, actually.

JM

So someone who's deeds are awesome but they have no faith is doomed, but someone who's deeds are ok but not nearly as awesome but they have faith is fine?

[giblets]

So you're saying that the mssenger may or may not be true, but just in case he's false you are going to disobey the commands? That's a choice then, and you should agree to the consequences.

Are you making a reference to pascal's wager?

[kentonio]

So you're saying that the mssenger may or may not be true, but just in case he's false you are going to disobey the commands? That's a choice then, and you should agree to the consequences.

If someone comes to your door and asks you to believe something that seems in a rational sense to be nonsensical, would you be happy to just believe that and suffer a horrible consequence if you didnt?!

[Jon Miller]

So someone who's deeds are awesome but they have no faith is doomed, but someone who's deeds are ok but not nearly as awesome but they have faith is fine?

The issue is that even the most perfect deeds that men can do, is still quite imperfect. They still do evil, still sin.

The wonder of Christ is that He forgives us, His righteousness covers us, and we are fine due to His righteousness, not our own. Our deeds don't matter, because they could never make us fine.

Now if we have faith, the faith requires us to act. To do good deeds. If we refuse to, we are not keeping our faith, and are not following Him. And if we keep doing so, we are rejecting Him.

The Christian's path is one of often needing the forgiveness of Christ, and accepting it. It is why a Christian slaveholder can be fine, but a wonderful atheist humanitarian might not be (in the end) despite the slaveholder's deeds being much worse than the humanitarian's.

JM

[Jon Miller]

If someone comes to your door and asks you to believe something that seems in a rational sense to be nonsensical, would you be happy to just believe that and suffer a horrible consequence if you didnt?!

How do you conclude it to be in a rational sense nonsensical when by this thread it seems to be reasonable to say that you haven't seriously considered it?

JM

[Kidlicious]

The wording in this question is ambiguous but I'm guessing you're asking me how the universe exists? I don't know.

Maybe you don't care. Maybe you just want to do what you want.

[giblets]

Maybe you don't care. Maybe you just want to do what you want.

Maybe it's beyond my capabilities to answer that question? I'm not going to just make something up if I can't figure out what the truth is.