Does hell really make sense?

[kentonio]

As far as the playing field being unbalanced, so what?

If I give one person 1000 dollars and another 10000 dollars, should the person I gave 1000 dollars complain and reject my 1000 dollars because I didn't give him 10000 dollars?

I'd see a closer example as being if there was an annihilation lottery (or be sent to hell lottery) and some people were given a million tickets and I was given one ticket, then I most certainly would complain!

[Jon Miller]

But it isn't a lottery, all can choose.

Maybe one person gets to choose twenty times and you get to choose once, but that doesn't mean that you didn't get given the choice.

Or to keep it in the lottery example.

It is like you a winning ticket for the lottery and another person has a million winning tickets. Should you complain about having only one ticket and refuse the prize?

JM

[Kidlicious]

I think the number of possible alternatives to christianity is infinite. There could be a god that will send you to hell if and only if you're a christian, for all I know. I could come up with all sorts of alternative possibilities but what would be the point? I'm in no position to try to figure out what the truth is. I don't think I'm capable of figuring it out. That makes it impossible to know what the eternal consequences, if any, of my actions are. Death is pretty scary actually.

Do you think you might be able to change the WAY you think. I mean search for the truth a different way. I believe you can. It's called free will. If you just keep believing the same way then that's a choice. All things are possible with God.

[Ben Kenobi]

Jon, do you believe that Jesus broke the Gates of Hell?

[giblets]

Do you think you might be able to change the WAY you think. I mean search for the truth a different way. I believe you can. It's called free will. If you just keep believing the same way then that's a choice. All things are possible with God.

I don't see why I should be able to change how my brain works. Are you suggesting I take drugs, maybe? The idea that people can just choose to believe anything seems false to me. And if belief was a choice, why would I choose to believe something that I don't already think is the truth?

[kentonio]

But it isn't a lottery, all can choose.

How can you choose if you don't know there's a choice to make? I know Ben answered with his denominations answer, but you said previously that faith was required for salvation.

Maybe one person gets to choose twenty times and you get to choose once, but that doesn't mean that you didn't get given the choice.

Or to keep it in the lottery example.

It is like you a winning ticket for the lottery and another person has a million winning tickets. Should you complain about having only one ticket and refuse the prize?

That's not a reasonable example, because that implies that you're going to make the right choice anyway and everyone ends up getting saved.

[Jon Miller]

Jon, do you believe that Jesus broke the Gates of Hell?

What do you think that means?

I think it means that He justified raising those who followed Him back to life. That now He can substitute His righteousness for our imperfection.

I do not think it means that there is a place called Hell with Gates that Christ broke.

I admit that I could be wrong. There is assuredly things I don't understand.

JM
(I understand the OC's position, but while I think that we can't understand everything and no Christian denomination has the right doctrine, I also think that study and thinking and reason are worth while and can lead us to blessings.)

[Jon Miller]

That's not a reasonable example, because that implies that you're going to make the right choice anyway and everyone ends up getting saved.

Let's say to accept the prize you have to buy an expensive train ticket to a distant city.

Some people will look at it, not believe that they have won or not value winning, and will look at the cost of the train ticket, and refuse to go and collect their prize.

Believing in Christ (not just believing that He exists, but in Him) is like that expensive train ticket.

JM

[Imran Siddiqui]

In the OC, at least, we're forbidden to speculate on where any particular person goes after death (we pursue a minimalist, "apophatic" approach to theology). I don't know that any one of those examples would, in fact, go to hell. Certainly I can't guess without knowing all their life experiences, which is why it's God's place to judge, not ours. As a matter of fact, we're not entirely clear about whether hell is even eternal, or what exactly it consists of; there are church fathers who maintain that universal reconciliation is possible, and ones who don't. Some say hell is the effect of the energies of God upon sinners, while others say it's the absence of those energies. Really our answer to everything is a shrug (in the form of the phrase "God has mercy"), so probably talking to me will just irritate you further. 'Course, that's one of the things I like about my church, that we don't try to understand the inexplicable.

FWIW, this is what I really do like about the Orthodox Church. I think it is correct on these matters, that it can be wrong to speculate too much on such things (I'm reminded of Job's friends).

Also verses like 1 Peter 4:6 (NIV):

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Make me realize that I really don't know what happens.

[Kidlicious]

I think I'd be far more likely to be able to accept that theory if it wasn't for the huge punishment hanging over anyone failing to find their way. A bus hits a three year old who had they not been hit by a bus would have found god. That three year old is presumably doomed for eternity, no? How about the example I used with jon earlier about rainforest tribes who don't have the same access to the bible as most others? Or people born in muslim countries who are brought up to believe in Allah instead?

Basically the playing field is completely unbalanced and unfair to vast numbers of humans, so how can that be a reasonable expectation to put upon us?

What does any of that have to do with the relationship between you and your creator? You're not focusing on what's important. I can't believe that anyone would be worried about such things. This is between you and God.

[kentonio]

Let's say to accept the prize you have to buy an expensive train ticket to a distant city.

Some people will look at it, not believe that they have won or not value winning, and will look at the cost of the train ticket, and refuse to go and collect their prize.

JM

You get a letter through the door tomorrow that says 'You've won a billion dollars!! Come to Moscow and collect your prize!'. Do you go?

[kentonio]

What does any of that have to do with the relationship between you and your creator? You're not focusing on what's important. I can't believe that anyone would be worried about such things. This is between you and God.

No, you're saying that from a position of already believing god exists. In doing so the game is already rigged. For someone who doesn't already believe in god, the idea that salvation is almost random or unachievable in some cases, throws the entire idea into question. If god is all powerful and merciful, how could he adopt a system that appears grossly unfair and unreasonable?

[Ben Kenobi]

I went.

Was it for real? Yep, sure is.

Was it worth it? Yep.

[Ben Kenobi]

If god is all powerful and merciful, how could he adopt a system that appears grossly unfair and unreasonable?

Look at it from this side. God is offering you eternal life in heaven, and all you have to do is swear that you love his Son and Him with all your heart.

Now, you're being offered your train ticket here. Is it unfair? I certainly don't think so. Is the reason that you don't want to take the ticket because it's unfair, or because you don't like the destination?

[kentonio]

Look at it from this side. God is offering you eternal life in heaven, and all you have to do is swear that you love his Son and Him with all your heart.

Why? How does that make any sense at all? If he's omnipotent then what difference does it make if his toys that he created anyway then go around swearing they love him? Is that not a bit petty?