Does hell really make sense?

[Jon Miller]

Would it be a choice if God appeared to you and said "I will kill you if you don't believe in me"?

In earlier society God worked miraculous signs and wonders and people still rejected Him, today He doesn't do so so often because of how best to present the choice to modern people (versus people of 2000 years ago).

I am fairly certain that the atheists who reject God today would have rejected Him if He had appeared in a burning bush.

I would like to make clear that Believing in Christ/not rejecting God does not mean that you believe God exists (in general). It is more than that.

JM

[kentonio]

And wouldn´t a loving god (which is what most christians believe god to be) do everything to make everyone aware of his existence so that everyone can make an informed choice, totally aware of gods existence and knowing that the choice you have to make (between accepting god and going to heaven or rejecting him and going to hell) is real.

Yeah, I don't get that either. You can understand the idea of people making a choice (although I still think it's questionable whether you can call 'or die' a real choice), but to then add in 'You can't even know its true, you just have to believe it' seems grossly unfair. That exactly would a god have to gain by refusing to prove his own existance? Why is blind faith a positive thing rather than a negative one?

[Ben Kenobi]

Wouldn't it make much more sense for him to be trying to get hold of good people to do nasty **** to?

Isn't that why he tempts people? As for punishment in hell, do you really believe that evil people unconstrained by God are going to care about hurting you? No.

[kentonio]

Would it be a choice if God appeared to you and said "I will kill you if you don't believe in me"?

So its better to just pass that message on via humans and further obfuscate the situation by adding in uncertainty?

I would like to make clear that Believing in Christ/not rejecting God does not mean that you believe God exists (in general). It is more than that.

Can you explain that further please, I don't understand what you're saying.

[Ben Kenobi]

Rejecting God means going away from Him. If God is the source of life, then rejecting Him implies the cessation of existence.

Bzzt! No. God will not destroy the souls that he creates.

If God gives us freewill, because that is 'good', then we have the free will to reject Him and thus die.

Bzzt! No. God tells us that our souls will live eternally in the afterlife.

Beings that can choose to disobey/reject/etc are more perfect than beings which can not choose, God in His power and perfection created us with the ability to choose to disobey/reject.

Absolutely, but we cannot 'choose' non-existence. We can only choose to be with God, or without him. And we must choose *before*, not after we die. What you are saying is that someone who is an unrepentent sinner would go to the Pearly Gates, be rejected and then go, damn, I was wrong, let me get in. It doesn't work that way, and Christ explicitly says so. Even the demons know that God exists, it doesn't mean that they can get in heaven..

[Kidlicious]

After consideration, I concluded that the beliefs of a "majority" sound like pure fiction.

What then, big bang?

[giblets]

Would it be a choice if God appeared to you and said "I will kill you if you don't believe in me"?

In earlier society God worked miraculous signs and wonders and people still rejected Him, today He doesn't do so so often because of how best to present the choice to modern people (versus people of 2000 years ago).

I am fairly certain that the atheists who reject God today would have rejected Him if He had appeared in a burning bush.

I would like to make clear that Believing in Christ/not rejecting God does not mean that you believe God exists (in general). It is more than that.

JM

Getting the message directly from a God would be preferable because humans are faulty and often believe things that are wrong, so there's plenty of room for doubting what a human tells you. The content of the message isn't the problem, I just don't find the delivery credible.

[Jon Miller]

Yeah, I don't get that either. You can understand the idea of people making a choice (although I still think it's questionable whether you can call 'or die' a real choice), but to then add in 'You can't even know its true, you just have to believe it' seems grossly unfair. That exactly would a god have to gain by refusing to prove his own existance? Why is blind faith a positive thing rather than a negative one?

God most likely isn't asking you to believe that He exists. Plenty of people in the Bible did and rejected Him.

Being an atheist is just one way of rejecting Him.

JM

[giblets]

What then, big bang?

What about a big bang? I don't think that has a lot to do with whether there is some creator of the universe who has a plan for it.

[Ben Kenobi]

And wouldn´t a loving god (which is what most christians believe god to be) do everything to make everyone aware of his existence so that everyone can make an informed choice, totally aware of gods existence and knowing that the choice you have to make (between accepting god and going to heaven or rejecting him and going to hell) is real.
I mean, the bible talks about angels who interact with humans and god him-/herself appearing as a burning thornbush.

"A wicked and unfaithful generation requests a sign, but none will be given except the sign of Jonah"

You seem to assume that signs and wonders will convince unrepentent sinners that they are wrong and must turn to Christ. The Bible shows that this isn't the case because people love their sin more than they love Christ.

Secondly, if you read Romans, we all have a conscience. Now if what you say is true, then we already have knowledge of God written on our hearts, even those who have not heard of Christ. They can still live in accordance to their conscience, and will be judged on what knowledge they do have and their ability to understand. Christ can read hearts and minds, something that we cannot.

So there should be no reason for a loving god to let anyone suffer for eternities because s/he makes the wrong choices caused by him/her not knowing that god is real (and rather believing christianity to be a fairy tale).

Garbage. People choose to reject God all their life, and now they are saying, "oh wait, I ****ed up, I want a do-over", no it doesn't work that way. You had your fun in this life. Tough beans. Want God in the afterlive, choose him now. Otherwise, suffer the consequences.

What keeps god from appearing as a burning speaking thornbush in a talkshow, or letting one of his angels do so ?

"A wicked and unfaithful generation asks for a sign..." Would you believe in him if he suddenly appeared before you and said, I am God? Would you bow down and worship him and admit that you are a worthless sinner in need of redemption?

[Jon Miller]

Can you explain that further please, I don't understand what you're saying.

From the Bible (James):

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

JM

[kentonio]

God most likely isn't asking you to believe that He exists. Plenty of people in the Bible did and rejected Him.

Being an atheist is just one way of rejecting Him.

JM

Well how can he on one hand not ask me to believe he exists, but on the other hand accuse me of rejecting him when I don't, and worse threaten eternal damnation as a result. That sounds completely callous.

[Jon Miller]

After consideration, I concluded that the beliefs of a "majority" sound like pure fiction.

If you have a list of reasons you believe that God doesn't exist, you could post them.

I was arguing that it isn't reasonable to say, out of hand, that God does not exist.

This thread seems to be about the problem of hell.

Which, others like me, and universalists, don't have.

JM

[Kidlicious]

Yeah, I don't get that either. You can understand the idea of people making a choice (although I still think it's questionable whether you can call 'or die' a real choice), but to then add in 'You can't even know its true, you just have to believe it' seems grossly unfair. That exactly would a god have to gain by refusing to prove his own existance? Why is blind faith a positive thing rather than a negative one?

Free will means you can choose what to believe. Nothing is preventing you from believing except yourself, so how is that unfair?

[kentonio]

From the Bible (James):

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

But what about deeds without faith?