A Bible question!!

[Kidlicious]

Borus,
I think the Bible makes a good case that killing your child is bad. You aren't doing well here.

[Jon Miller]

Leviticus 20:2
New International Version (NIV)
2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him.

Deuteronomy 18:10
New International Version (NIV)
10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,

Note that this was the death penalty.

Now that I look it up online, apparently there has been scholarship for a long time that it was her status as a woman which was sacrificed (the verses make a big point about 'knew not a man' for someone who died). Be that as it may, the Bible was clear before that and afterwards what was right.

The sermons I have heard on this story were with the interpretation that she died, and that it was because Israel did not know the way of God (even the Judges) (which is one of the points of the books of Judges).

JM

[Kidlicious]

I only remember one sermon about him. His mother was a prostitute and he was driven because of it. The lesson is not to be so driven that you act foolish but to trust God and have patience.

[Ben Kenobi]

Where does the OT condemn Jepthah for what he did?

The OT simply says that the entire period was one where the Israelites, Jepthah included, abandoned God.

Nowhere. In fact, in Hebrews in the NT he's praised as a Man of Faith.

And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets,

These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

What did Jepthah himself receive? He destroyed the Ammonites, yet was slaughtered when he returned. Hardly was he blessed by God for his actions. Instead he was ultimately destroyed. Was he a man of faith? Yes. That doesn't absolve him of what he did do, which is why, and why, he is listed in the passage.

All of us have sinned and it is only through God himself may we be redeemed.

You on the other hand are arguing that Child sacrifice is ok in abortion, and the bible sanctions it.

You'd think the fact that he wrongfully killed his own daughter would be pointed out somewhere.

If you read the passage, it's a disaster for Jepthah.

At any rate, you're avoiding the point of the story, which is that that it was considered more immoral to break a promise to their god than to kill one's own child.

No, the moral of the passage is not to swear rash oaths.

*That's* what makes him praise-worthy as a man of faith, according to the Bible itself.

Defeating the Ammonites? Hello?

Of course, we have the problem that their god ostensibly could have intervened at some point to tell Jepthah not to do it. There is, after all, precedent for him doing so. He didn't let Abraham knife his own kid.

Abraham never swore to 'sacrifice whatever came out of the door'. As he said, he believed that God would furnish the means for the sacrifice. Jepthah worded his oath such that his daughter's life was the only one who could fulfill it.

And the Bible isn't a guidebook? Really? Do you not take your moral views from the information relayed in the Bible? Would any other Christian here agree with that?

Not just a guidebook. It's a historical account of times which we have no other account. Does it instruct people how to live their lives? Yes. It's quite a few other things as well. Where does the bible say that Jepthah did right in sacrificing his daughter? You are arguing from silence here.

[Ben Kenobi]

The sermons I have heard on this story were with the interpretation that she died, and that it was because Israel did not know the way of God (even the Judges) (which is one of the points of the books of Judges).

This is why the ban, when Leviticus rolled around, explicitly banned this practice. Anyways, I think it's clear. Nobody is *happy* when Jepthah screws up. The bible is quite clear that this is a disaster for him. What does Boris want, "and this would be bad?"

[Ben Kenobi]

But he would have been just as much a man of faith if he had instead of paying for his sin, he had stopped and asked forgiveness instead.

Had he sworn that all his household would follow the Lord, he would have gotten what he sought in the manner by which God found pleasing. He would have been blessed, as Caleb was blessed. Instead his line came to an end.

[Ben Kenobi]

Actually, BK, I didn't proclaim morality was culturally relative, as you suggest. So you're arguing against yourself here, not me.

And I never said you did. I said, if you believed that morality is culturally relative, then, etc.

Why do you believe that child sacrifice is wrong, Boris?

The point is that someone who looks at an ostensibly evil act

Why is it ostensibly evil? Plenty of human societies did human sacrifice.

Either one can judge another's behavior as good and evil, or one can't.

Which is fine, but I'm asking a different question. Why do you believe child sacrifice is wrong?

[Ben Kenobi]

You and HC could only say this by being completely ignorant of the situations that lead most women to seek abortions and of the reality of what a fetus is.

So what is the 'reality of the fetus', Boris?

[Imran Siddiqui]

On the issue of Jephthah, I think it is key that rabbinic commentary on the story indicates that Jephthah's sacrifice was a gross violation of God's law. Furthermore, in the New Testament, Jesus isn't keen on oaths:

Matthew 5:33-37 (NIV):

33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

which would indicate that Jephthah's oath wasn't seen with favor. In addition, I think because the Bible speaks of flawed men, rather than trying to hold them up as perfect (aside from God the Son, of course), makes its case even stronger. These aren't supermen, but flawed, sinful men and women trying to make their way in the world through (or against as the case may be) God. It also lends an air of authencity - the good and the bad is shown in the Scriptures.

[Felch]

You and HC could only say this by being completely ignorant of the situations that lead most women to seek abortions and of the reality of what a fetus is.

What is a fetus? Is it non-human?

[Berzerker]

Well, what makes a person good, Berz? If we add up the evil deeds and it balances out well to the good, does that make a person good?

If we are "judged" on our lives when we're dead, I figure we each gotta stand before the people we've harmed and suffer the consequences. Now read the Lord's Prayer, what does he require? He requires that we forgive trespassers. That is a deed... And it raises a bunch of questions, like how can a Christian nation have jails? "We forgive you, now here's your jail cell"? By that logic God can forgive everyone and then punish them anyway. Or maybe we die and thats it... Who knows? But there are plenty of good people who never heard of Christianity.

The fact that humans are willing to kill others if it is convenient for them is because humans have evil inclinations.

is it evil when animals kill each other for "convenience" or is that just their "nature"?

God could act to stop all murders. To stop all sickness. And so on.

And then we would have no free choice and be robots.

Obviously, according to God's morality, freedom is more important.

And I agree with Him.

Freedom (and free will) is the absence of coercion or constraint, murder is a constraint.

[MrFun]

I have also been wondering why Christian fundies do not apply all of the rules in Leviticus to themselves.

[Aeson]

I have also been wondering why Christian fundies do not apply all of the rules in Leviticus to themselves.

Because they believe the Law of Moses was fulfilled by Christ.

[Berzerker]

and that exempts them from Leviticus but not the 10 commandments etc?

[Aeson]

It technically exempts them from both, but not Christ's law. The law of Christ (Sermon on the Mount) includes many of the old laws or slight variations thereof as well as some additions of course. Most people (Christians or not) don't seem to know the difference.