A Bible question!!

[Boris Godunov]

I agree.

I am constantly amazed that so many people defend it.

JM

You and HC could only say this by being completely ignorant of the situations that lead most women to seek abortions and of the reality of what a fetus is.

[Boris Godunov]

Actually, Boris.

Couple things. How do you know what is Good and what is Evil. What you are doing here is condemning people for doing things that you believe are evil. How do you know that you are right?

If one sincerely believed that all cultures were equal and that Good and truth was relative, then you could not condemn these actions.

Actually, BK, I didn't proclaim morality was culturally relative, as you suggest. So you're arguing against yourself here, not me.

But you fail to grasp the point. The point is that someone who looks at an ostensibly evil act committed by a being and proclaims themselves unable to judge that evil because "it's not their place to judge" that being or "that being's will is ineffable," etc., then logically that same person cannot proclaim that any acts of that being are good and just. Either one can judge another's behavior as good and evil, or one can't.

[Boris Godunov]

You miss the entire point of judges. Most likely because of bias.

The Bible is about morality being more than white/black. Jepthah was trying to do what was right, but did wrong. This is true of old testament people, over and over again. And it is true today as well.

It doesn't surprise me that you think the way you do, given the above.

Think about it. David is one of the greatest heroes of the old testament (maybe the greatest). It is clear enough for everyone that he did wrong (it should also be clear about Jepthah, but you don't see it, so maybe you don't see David either). Heroes does not mean 'does not do wrong' or 'knows when they sin' or anything else. Both testaments are full of flawed people in complicated and flawed situations. That is why it is such a great spiritual book.

If the Bible was meant to be just a set of instructions, it wouldn't work, but it would also be like leviticus or something but much much larger.

JM

The misunderstanding here is yours, not mine.

I'm not arguing whether or not Jepthah was a morally good or bad person (clearly I don't believe he was, if he even existed and did what it says he did). The issue is that *nowhere in the Bible are his actions condemned,* and the NT praises him. The historical interpretation of his act is as I said above: he is an example of a "man of faith" because he fulfills his promise to god, even though that means slaughtering his child. It's *that moral conclusions* with which I take issue. Any being that considers a promise being kept to him more important than a life--especially when said being could easily intercede to stop the murder--is a petty, selfish and evil being.

[Boris Godunov]

It's actually human to be offended by God, because we can never understand Him. But Christians love love and obey Him so no harm ever comes to us. "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline."

If you can't understand him, then you can't proclaim him to be the epitome of Goodness. If you love and obey such a being unconditionally, even when that being does horrifically evil things, then you've no idea whether or not you're in the thrall of an evil being.

[DaShi]

You and HC could only say this by being completely ignorant of the situations that lead most women to seek abortions and of the reality of what a fetus is.

QFT

[Boris Godunov]

Probably because the Bible is not the story about perfect superhumans. It's a book that dead honestly tells the story about flawed human beings, many which was used by God.
Think of Abraham: He lied and risked his wife becoming a concubine of foreign kings to not risk his life, instead of trusting God. God still used him for great things.
Or Jacob: He cheated his brother by deceiving his father and steal his blessing and inheritance. He later got the name Israel and was called the friend of God.
Or Moses: He was a hothead and murderer, who cowardly fled when discovered. He became the biggest prophet ever.
Or David: He was called a man after God's heart, but he ordered the killing of one of his most trusted and loyal warriors, to have sex with the man's wife. Why was he a man after God's heart? He repented and humiliated himself before God.

Or a completely different example, Judas Iskariot: He betrayed Jesus, and he took his own life rather than trusting God's mercy and love. He did not repent, but he is part of the Bible, because the Bible doesn't only tell about the good and successful guys.

See above. As with JM, you miss the point entirely. I'm not suggesting these beings are meant to be seen as morally perfect. However, I chose Jepthah precisely because he is never condemned, and the story is told from the perspective that his sacrifice of his daughter was the morally right thing to do just because he promised to do so. That's why the NT refers to him as a man of faith, not a man who stabby-stabbed his own daughter. The notion that all of the horrific killing the OT is against God's wishes is, of course, absurd. He not just gives explicit consent to such crimes, he orders them and punishes people when they fail to carry out the atrocities he commanded. The OT god directly kills scores of innocents to prove points ("HEY, WHAT'S THIS, A CENSUS? NOT ON MY WATCH! NOW I'LL KILL SEVENTY THOUSAND OF YOU, WAHAHAHAHA!")

[Kidlicious]

If you can't understand him, then you can't proclaim him to be the epitome of Goodness. If you love and obey such a being unconditionally, even when that being does horrifically evil things, then you've no idea whether or not you're in the thrall of an evil being.

I don't think you understand about the Holy Spirit. I no longer depend on my own understanding, but I have faith in Him.

[Boris Godunov]

[Boris Godunov]

I don't think you understand about the Holy Spirit. I no longer depend on my own understanding, but I have faith in Him.

The "Holy Spirit" is just a way of saying you're being guided by gut feeling, and reason and logic can't penetrate. That's not a virtue in my book. Far from it, in fact.

[Kidlicious]

The "Holy Spirit" is just a way of saying you're being guided by gut feeling, and reason and logic can't penetrate. That's not a virtue in my book. Far from it, in fact.

.
I don't believe in following my gut feeling. In fact a lot of things that I do goes against my gut feeling, but that's where faith comes in.

[Jon Miller]

You and HC could only say this by being completely ignorant of the situations that lead most women to seek abortions and of the reality of what a fetus is.

Scientifically it is a human being.

The fact that humans are willing to kill others if it is convenient for them is because humans have evil inclinations.

JM

[Jon Miller]

See above. As with JM, you miss the point entirely. I'm not suggesting these beings are meant to be seen as morally perfect. However, I chose Jepthah precisely because he is never condemned, and the story is told from the perspective that his sacrifice of his daughter was the morally right thing to do just because he promised to do so. That's why the NT refers to him as a man of faith, not a man who stabby-stabbed his own daughter. The notion that all of the horrific killing the OT is against God's wishes is, of course, absurd. He not just gives explicit consent to such crimes, he orders them and punishes people when they fail to carry out the atrocities he commanded. The OT god directly kills scores of innocents to prove points ("HEY, WHAT'S THIS, A CENSUS? NOT ON MY WATCH! NOW I'LL KILL SEVENTY THOUSAND OF YOU, WAHAHAHAHA!")

He was condemned.

You don't think he was condemned because the people around him in the story didn't condemn him. But you don't read the Bible, so you don't understand. It is like me taking a few sentences out of Ulysses or something and making conclusions about the characters and what the author thinks about them without any context.

The stories of judges were included in scripture at the same time as a number of the other old testament books. In every case, human sacrifice is completely and utterly condemned. Like in a 'look at how evil this king has fallen' sort of way.

To the people who study it, instead of just looking at something to make their point, the story of the judges is one of showing how far off even those who were trying to serve God went when Israel lost their way.

Of course, you don't seek to understand anything, and are not willing to read, so you conclude differently (and are no different than those of the fundamentalist camp).

If you want to review God's morality in the OT, you can choose other verses (the CENSUS one/etc is better, for example).

You are being really stupid here.

JM

[Jon Miller]

And yes, Jepthah was a man of faith.

But he would have been just as much a man of faith if he had instead of paying for his sin, he had stopped and asked forgiveness instead.

JM

[Jon Miller]

God could act to stop all murders. To stop all sickness. And so on.

And then we would have no free choice and be robots.

Obviously, according to God's morality, freedom is more important.

And I agree with Him.

JM

[Jon Miller]

And the Bible isn't a guidebook? Really? Do you not take your moral views from the information relayed in the Bible? Would any other Christian here agree with that?

David was a great man of God, therefore I should go out and kill a bunch of people, kill a trusted servant to sleep with his wife, and so on...

The Bible is only a guidebook when it says so.

I will admit there are lots of Christians with little knowledge.

JM