A Bible question!!

[Berzerker]

love god and love others pretty much covers it all

[Aeson]

No, there are other things Jesus taught about blasphemy, greed, divorce, oaths, adultery, murder, ect.

[Ben Kenobi]

If we are "judged" on our lives when we're dead, I figure we each gotta stand before the people we've harmed and suffer the consequences.

The good things we do do not outweigh the bad things. The wrong that we do has to made up.

Now read the Lord's Prayer, what does he require? He requires that we forgive trespassers.

Forgiveness doesn't imply that there are not consequences for the breach.

That is a deed... And it raises a bunch of questions, like how can a Christian nation have jails?

As you said sin has consequences. Certain sins are punished by arrest and jail. Jail is merciful compared to eye for eye.

By that logic God can forgive everyone and then punish them anyway. Or maybe we die and thats it... Who knows? But there are plenty of good people who never heard of Christianity.

What makes them good, Berz? Does the good that we do outweigh the bad? This is why I asked you that question.

[Ben Kenobi]

I have also been wondering why Christian fundies do not apply all of the rules in Leviticus to themselves

An odd statement. Are you a fundy, Mr. Fun?

[Berzerker]

No, there are other things Jesus taught about blasphemy, greed, divorce, oaths, adultery, murder, ect.

Which violate the 2 commandments - love God and love others

The good things we do do not outweigh the bad things. The wrong that we do has to made up.

How do you know the first part, and why do the wrongs need to be made up? Isn't that what forgiveness is all about?

Forgiveness doesn't imply that there are not consequences for the breach.

Thats exactly what it means, to forgive is to dismiss the breach. If you punch me in the arm and I forgive you, I dont then punch you back. If you're right, then God will be punishing Christians - after he forgives them. Does that make any sense? Not to me...

As you said sin has consequences. Certain sins are punished by arrest and jail. Jail is merciful compared to eye for eye.

Sins != crimes, but you didn't address the issue - you cannot forgive a trespasser and then throw them in a cage. And we got plenty of people in jails who never took an eye, or a tooth... So Christians wouldn't throw stones at the adulteress, but they would throw her in a cage?

What makes them good, Berz? Does the good that we do outweigh the bad? This is why I asked you that question.

How can I say the good outweighs the bad when we aint talking about anyone specific? People are different, some are very good, some are very bad, and most are in between.

[Kidlicious]

I have also been wondering why Christian fundies do not apply all of the rules in Leviticus to themselves.

Like what? Hand washing ceremonies? I think the epistles say that those things only apply to the Jews.

Berz,
1) Evil is disobedience (see Adam and Eve)
2) Free will is better defined as the ability to control your thoughts, not freedom.

[Berzerker]

God didn't accuse Adam and Eve of evil - both God and the Serpent said Adam and Eve could now understand or know good and evil - same as God. If you accuse Adam and Eve of evil for having their eyes opened like God, then God is evil. Murder is neither an act of freedom or free will, the victim's freedom (and free will) is violated by the act of murder. You might as well argue that slavery is freedom...

[Kidlicious]

God didn't accuse Adam and Eve of evil - both God and the Serpent said Adam and Eve could now understand or know good and evil - same as God. If you accuse Adam and Eve of evil for having their eyes opened like God, then God is evil. Murder is neither an act of freedom or free will, the victim's freedom (and free will) is violated by the act of murder. You might as well argue that slavery is freedom...

They only "know good and evil" because they disobeyed God. It's not the evil. That's the cosequence. It's one thing for God to know evil, it's something else for humans.

[Kidlicious]

And murder IS an act of free will, because we choose to do. We have the ability not to do it. On the other hand we are not free to do it.

[Kidlicious]

love god and love others pretty much covers it all

That doesn't mean you can disobey particular commandments. New Age Spiritualists like to quote the Bible where it says God is Love but they disobey many of God's commandments.

[grumbler]

They only "know good and evil" because they disobeyed God. It's not the evil. That's the cosequence. It's one thing for God to know evil, it's something else for humans.

So the "free will" that you refer to comes from Adam's sin of finding out what evil is?

Doesn't that make free will evil?

After all, Adam and Eve couldn't commit evil if they didn't know what good and evil were, so they were created without free will.

Of course, that means that the decision to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge couldn't have been an evil decision, because they lacked the knowledge of good and evil that would have allowed them to choose the to undertake the "original sin" consciously. Lacking free will (i.e. knowledge of good and evil) they were puppets of their creator, and so their creator bears the responsibility for their actions.

That is all just according to logic, though. That might not apply to religious stories.

[Kidlicious]

So the "free will" that you refer to comes from Adam's sin of finding out what evil is?

Doesn't that make free will evil?

After all, Adam and Eve couldn't commit evil if they didn't know what good and evil were, so they were created without free will.

Of course, that means that the decision to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge couldn't have been an evil decision, because they lacked the knowledge of good and evil that would have allowed them to choose the to undertake the "original sin" consciously. Lacking free will (i.e. knowledge of good and evil) they were puppets of their creator, and so their creator bears the responsibility for their actions.

That is all just according to logic, though. That might not apply to religious stories.

Good point. I think we do have to go beyond logic and look inwardly for the meaning. That pleases God. Also it says in James that everything has happened so that we can be the first fruits of creation, which is a very good thing.

[grumbler]

Good point. I think we do have to go beyond logic and look inwardly for the meaning. That pleases God.

Actually, I think the opposite is true; you have to look to someone to give you the received knowledge of what the stories mean, because the inward understandings of the stores leave you with entirely the wrong impression (like the definite conclusion that Yahweh is a first-class dick).

[MrFun]

Because they believe the Law of Moses was fulfilled by Christ.

But Christian fundies point out Leviticus when talking about gay people. So I'm wondering why so many Christian fundies still wear clothing of mixed fabrics, eating shellfish, and so on.

[Felch]

I guess some folks just aren't into butt stuff.