A Bible question!!

[BlackCat]

Which brings us back to the main point. Since you believe that the unborn child isn't a human person, what is it?

A biological entity that given time could evolve into a human being.

[kentonio]

Oerdin, someone that registered in 2002 can't exactly be called a newbie

He might not have written anything, but you can't say what he have read.

This is true. Over the years I've dropped back in from time to time to read a few posts and see if a few old faces are still around. Morally I suppose it's a bit like patient stalking.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'd love to, but unfortunately it's an impossible peice of information to know.

Unfortunately, for you, yes it is possible to know. The practioners who did the abortions keep records y'know.

The actual figure was approaching 100,000 but the figure we gave to the media repeatedly was 1,000,000. Repeating the big lie often enough convinces the public. The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around 200-250 annually. The figure we constantly fed to the media was 10,000.

There weren't even 10k women of childbearing age dying each year! What a scam!

When something is illegal (and especially illegal and frowned upon by morally uptight *******s) people tend to not report things, people write up deaths as something else (so as not to disgrace families) and suchlike.

True, but the doctors who perform them have a pretty good idea of how many they are doing. Look at it this way. Do you play basketball? Imagine what the NBA would look like if instead of 30 teams, you had 3. Every team would be an all star team.

The same is true of abortion when there were only 100k done every year. It was a small industry (about 10 million a year), and everyone involved knew everyone else. So yes, the records are there as to how many were done.

I've heard of hospitals that have been found on investigation to have unsanitary conditions. Should we say that hospitals are putting peoples lives at risk and try and ban them too?

They shut down hospitals for being unsanitary. They don't shut down abortion clinics. In many cases, they aren't even inspected. As you said, you're worried about the fly by night practioner killing women, well, that's what's happening today.

So let me get this right, you think that abortion should be banned and that it'll be ok because doctors can just break the law and do abortions anyway, and if people do die then they deserve it anyway? Is that a fair summary of your position?

Is it better to make it legal and kill more women in the process? If you believe that saving women's lives is the top priority, then we ought to ban abortion. Seems pretty clear to me.

So we're to ignore everything Nathanson said prior to this change from pro-choice to anti-choice, but then everything he said after that point is gospel?

As opposed to believing him before and calling him a liar now? Ok. Great. So what are your numbers. Oh wait, "nobody knows". I call bull****.

It's a medical procedure that I'm in no way qualified to assess whether it needs a doctor or not.

It's above your paygrade, eh? So let's recap. You are against fly-by night operators posing as doctors doing abortions, but don't know if the procedure needs a doctor to be done safely?

What I do feel qualified to say however is that it needs a medical facility and real healthcare professionals, not some quack in a back alley with a coathangar.

What's the difference between a quack and Krishna Rajanna? http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=30815 Only one of them is a real healthcare professional.

[Ben Kenobi]

A biological entity that given time could evolve into a human being.

What kind of biological entity is it? Do you believe that 'evolution' is the process by which the sperm and egg combine, grow and develop, in order to become a person?

[Ben Kenobi]

**** you. You have no idea what's it's like to have to hustle just to make some money to feed your daughter.

Au contraire. If it weren't for the dope that was pushed, people would be better off. I don't like dope pushers.

One of em stole my dad's snowblower just to feed his habit.

Blame the users, not the hustlers. I don't blame priests just because people like you misuse the product they're pushing.

Which is why they sell it to kids? Pushers are scum. I've seen them hanging around the playground at my old apartment.

[kentonio]

Unfortunately, for you, yes it is possible to know. The practioners who did the abortions keep records y'know.

The people carrying out illegal abortions kept scrupulous records? You recognize that's stupid right?

There weren't even 10k women of childbearing age dying each year! What a scam!

The only person here quoting Nathanson is you. I think you might want to check the above statement though as it sounds like nonsense.

True, but the doctors who perform them have a pretty good idea of how many they are doing. Look at it this way. Do you play basketball? Imagine what the NBA would look like if instead of 30 teams, you had 3. Every team would be an all star team.

The same is true of abortion when there were only 100k done every year. It was a small industry (about 10 million a year), and everyone involved knew everyone else. So yes, the records are there as to how many were done.

Dear god...

No. Just no. Illegal abortion used to be something carried out all over the world, often by people in small communities who women knew they could contact if they needed. It wasn't like they had conventions! Do you believe that drug dealers or armed robbers keep meticulous records? The thing about records is that if you get picked up by law enforcement they have a nasty habit of using that evidence against you.

They shut down hospitals for being unsanitary. They don't shut down abortion clinics. In many cases, they aren't even inspected. As you said, you're worried about the fly by night practioner killing women, well, that's what's happening today.

Except it isn't.

Is it better to make it legal and kill more women in the process? If you believe that saving women's lives is the top priority, then we ought to ban abortion. Seems pretty clear to me.

The only way you can say more women are dying is because more women are having the procedure. Legal abortion is infinitely safer than illegally performed abortions for reasons that are simply too obvious to go over again. As for more women dying because more women have the procedure, that is completely their own choice to make.

As opposed to believing him before and calling him a liar now? Ok. Great. So what are your numbers. Oh wait, "nobody knows". I call bull****.

Except of course that nobody has really mentioned him or those figures except for you (and me in a brief response). Were you and the Dr romantically involved or something, because you do appear to have something of a crush on the guy.

It's above your paygrade, eh? So let's recap. You are against fly-by night operators posing as doctors doing abortions, but don't know if the procedure needs a doctor to be done safely?

Paygrade? I'd simply describe it as an admittance that not having a medical degree, I'm not qualified to judge. May I assume you do have s?

What's the difference between a quack and Krishna Rajanna? http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=30815 Only one of them is a real healthcare professional.

You read WorldNetDaily? Now things make more sense. I assume you did bother to follow up on that story and discover that the allegation was made by an employee after the Dr. had accused them of theft?

[Ben Kenobi]

The people carrying out illegal abortions kept scrupulous records? You recognize that's stupid right?

Can't run a business without records.

The only person here quoting Nathanson is you. I think you might want to check the above statement though as it sounds like nonsense.

According to whom? Someone who's never worked in the business, or someone who spent most of his career there? I think I'll trust Nathanson.

Illegal abortion used to be something carried out all over the world,

I'm talking about America. There were 100k done in America, and yes, those who were involved knew and worked with each other.

It wasn't like they had conventions!

Sure they did.

Do you believe that drug dealers or armed robbers keep meticulous records?

I don't see any reason why abortion doctors wouldn't keep records. They had to know whether they were making or losing money.

The thing about records is that if you get picked up by law enforcement they have a nasty habit of using that evidence against you.

Right, because the federal government is in the nasty habit of prosecuting former abortionists. From what I can see the same clinics that operate now probably have records back to the 60s.

Except it isn't.

Yes, it is.

The only way you can say more women are dying is because more women are having the procedure.

So you don't think that's a bad thing? More women are dying today than before.

Legal abortion is infinitely safer

Then feel free to cite stats in support of your argument.

that is completely their own choice to make.

So you don't really care if a woman lives or dies, so long as it's her choice. Thank you.

Except of course that nobody has really mentioned him or those figures except for you (and me in a brief response).

They were widely published at the time, the 10k per year figure and the 1 million abortions a year prior to legalization.

Again, you cannot argue that abortion is unsafe done illegally by doctors and safe when done legally by non doctors. That's just a complete non-starter.

You read WorldNetDaily? Now things make more sense. I assume you did bother to follow up on that story and discover that the allegation was made by an employee after the Dr. had accused them of theft

Were the allegations true?

Again, I ask you, if the unborn are not persons, than what are they?

[Docfeelgood]

Divorcing is not a sin, what Jesus said is that you can divorce, but you can't remarry while your divorced ex partner is alive.
Jesus gave the example of adultery as something that could justify a divorce

crap! all six of my ex-wives are still alive.

[Kidlicious]

crap! all six of my ex-wives are still alive.

I think Jesus meant that you shouldn't divource the wife of your youth and marry a virgin. You didn't do that 6 times did you?

[kentonio]

Can't run a business without records.

I'm talking about America. There were 100k done in America, and yes, those who were involved knew and worked with each other.

Sure they did.

I don't see any reason why abortion doctors wouldn't keep records. They had to know whether they were making or losing money.

Right, because the federal government is in the nasty habit of prosecuting former abortionists. From what I can see the same clinics that operate now probably have records back to the 60s.

Ahah! I get it now! You're under the misapprehension that illegal abortion used to be carried out in the same way that abortion is today in clinics and suchlike. Here's a little peice from 'Our Bodies, Ourselves for the New Century' that might clear things up for you.

Many of us do not know what it was like to need an abortion before legalization. Women who could afford to pay skilled doctors or go to another country had the safest and easiest abortions. Most women found it difficult if not impossible to arrange and pay for abortions in medical settings.

With one exception, the doctors whom I asked for an abortion treated me with contempt, their attitudes ranging from hostile to insulting. One said to me, ``You tramps like to break the rules, but when you get caught you all come crawling for help in the same way.''

The secret world of illegal abortion was mostly frightening and expensive. Although there were skilled and dedicated laywomen and doctors who performed safe, illegal abortions, most illegal abortionists, doctors, and those who claimed to be doctors cared only about being well rewarded for their trouble. In the 1960s, abortionists often turned women away if they could not pay $1,000 or more in cash. Some male abortionists insisted on having sexual relations before the abortion.

Abortionists emphasized speed and their own protection. They often didn't use anesthesia because it took too long for women to recover, and they wanted women out of the office as quickly as possible. Some abortionists were rough and sadistic. Almost no one took adequate precautions against hemorrhage or infection.

Typically, the abortionist would forbid the woman to contact him or her again. Often she wouldn't know his or her real name. If a complication occurred, harassment by the law was a frightening possibility. The need for secrecy isolated women having abortions and those providing them.

That make things any clearer?

So you don't think that's a bad thing? More women are dying today than before.

So you don't really care if a woman lives or dies, so long as it's her choice. Thank you.

When the alternative is denying women the right to chose what happens to their own bodies, you're quite right I don't care. A vast number of people die every year in cars, should we ban those?

Then feel free to cite stats in support of your argument.

Except as I've already pointed out, you can't get accurate stats. I'm extremely confident however that a medical procedure performed in a medically accredited environment is safer than one performed under illegal conditions often by ill trained or untrained staff.

Again, you cannot argue that abortion is unsafe done illegally by doctors and safe when done legally by non doctors. That's just a complete non-starter.

Except I didn't say that, but good try at mixing together two different points of discussion to make a single provocative statement.

Were the allegations true?

About the theft? I don't know. It appears that the allegations that the person then made about the doctor were not made until after the police were called however, and other employees have described it as 'ludicrous'.

Again, I ask you, if the unborn are not persons, than what are they?

Cells, which given time may or may not grow into a human. It's worth remembering here that 50% of pregnancies end in natural miscarraige anyway, thus making god the biggest abortionist in the world if you believe in all that desert goatherder folktale stuff.

[Docfeelgood]

I think Jesus meant that you shouldn't divource the wife of your youth and marry a virgin. You didn't do that 6 times did you?

[Tupac Shakur]

Ken, you're new here so I'll let you in on an open secret. Everyone has Ben on ignore because he's an lying ass clown who is not worth talking to.

We also ignore Oerdin's posts (although generally not via the formal ignore list), as he's literally wrong about everything. Keep that in mind going forward, as you may find yourself in agreement with Oerdin at some point and it's good to know that means you're wrong and should just walk away.

[Kidlicious]

Well if you don't believe in God I can see how you might not believe in life before birth. Are you atheist or agnostic. You sound like an atheist but I wouldn't be suprised to find out that you call yourself an agnostic.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ahah! I get it now! You're under the misapprehension that illegal abortion used to be carried out in the same way that abortion is today in clinics and suchlike. Here's a little peice from 'Our Bodies, Ourselves for the New Century' that might clear things up for you.

No, I believe that the same people who did abortions before they were legal were the same as those who did abortion after it became legal.

Although there were skilled and dedicated laywomen and doctors who performed safe, illegal abortions, most illegal abortionists, doctors, and those who claimed to be doctors cared only about being well rewarded for their trouble.

And the source for this? She's admitting that doctors did perform safe illegal abortions, but provides no evidence behind her statement. How many were performed? If 'no one knows', then we have no idea as to whether they were or were not safe.

With one exception, the doctors whom I asked for an abortion treated me with contempt

Which has what to do with the actual argument? Why should we care whether doctors back then were callous to their charges? Does one see abortion doctors as the life of the party today? This is pure drivel. Are we supposed to think things were bad back then because a doctor called her a tramp? Oh my?

When the alternative is denying women the right to chose

So, you don't care about women at all. You care about killing babies, first and foremost. That much is clear.

We do not have the freedom to kill other people.

you're quite right I don't care.

Well I do. I think it's wrong to kill babies and wrong to kill women wanting to kill their babies, and I think anyone who does either ought to be prosecuted.

Except as I've already pointed out, you can't get accurate stats.

Then you cannot defend your statement that legal abortions are infinitely safer.

I'm extremely confident however that a medical procedure performed in a medically accredited environment is safer than one performed under illegal conditions often by ill trained or untrained staff.

Well what is happening today is that legal abortions are being performed by ill-trained staff, in unkempt and unsanitary conditions. And people like you only care whether it's legal, not about their health and welfare.

What evidence do you have that illegal abortions were performed in an unkempt environment? I should think that a woman's foremost concern would be this, but we do not see this. Instead we see concern about the poor doctor's manners. That she thought this significant enough to merit mention speaks volumes about the conditions back then.

Except I didn't say that, but good try at mixing together two different points of discussion to make a single provocative statement.

You did say this. If you are opposed to non-doctors performing abortions, you should have said so. Instead you said it was above your pay grade.

It appears that the allegations that the person then made about the doctor were not made until after the police were called however, and other employees have described it as 'ludicrous'.

Have you seen the messes these guys leave behind? I have, it's not a pretty sight.

Cells, which given time may or may not grow into a human.

What kind of cells are they? People are made up out of cells, but people cells are not the same as dog or cat cells.

It's worth remembering here that 50% of pregnancies end in natural miscarraige anyway

So it's ok to kill someone because, "they would have died anyways"

It's also worth remembering that 100 percent of those alive today were once in this stage of development.

thus making god the biggest abortionist in the world if you believe in all that desert goatherder folktale stuff.

Then why don't we let God do his work then?

[Kidlicious]

Oh it was probably drugs then.