A Bible question!!

[Ben Kenobi]

Keep that in mind going forward, as you may find yourself in agreement with Oerdin at some point and it's good to know that means you're wrong and should just walk away.

Oerdin's probably the most informed poster on apolyton. I don't know anyone with his sagacity or erudition. A model for us all.

[kentonio]

Well if you don't believe in God I can see how you might not believe in life before birth. Are you atheist or agnostic. You sound like an atheist but I wouldn't be suprised to find out that you call yourself an agnostic.

Who me? I'm about as atheist as you can be while still retaining the scientific possibility that however nonsensical any of it is, there's always some infinitely minute possibility that its somehow true.

I spent many years looking at various religions and mysticisms and so on, and then came to the conclusion that it was nothing but wishful thinking.

[Kidlicious]

Who me? I'm about as atheist as you can be while still retaining the scientific possibility that however nonsensical any of it is, there's always some infinitely minute possibility that its somehow true.

I spent many years looking at various religions and mysticisms and so on, and then came to the conclusion that it was nothing but wishful thinking.

How's that working out for you?

[Berzerker]

They only "know good and evil" because they disobeyed God. It's not the evil. That's the cosequence. It's one thing for God to know evil, it's something else for humans.

But the disobedience is not described as evil, its described as a form of equality with God - even God repeats the Serpent's prediction about what would happen, your eyes will be opened like God, you will know morality, good and evil. Of course all the symbolism in the story about the nature of this knowledge points to Adam and Eve acquiring the ability to procreate (there's that Sumerian religion again).

Or maybe God told Adam and Eve not to have children and they did anyway, but I suspect this story in the Garden refers back to older versions from Mesopotamia about the creation of mankind in which the gods created hybrids at first followed by people close enough genetically to procreate. "There was no Adam to till the land", and God put the man in the Garden to tend it... The Sumerians said the gods made us to work for them, and there it is in Genesis - 2 references to our purpose for existing.

And murder IS an act of free will, because we choose to do. We have the ability not to do it. On the other hand we are not free to do it.

Murder violates the free will of the victim, God's gift of free will (oh wait, it wasn't a gift from God but from the Serpent) is a gift to us all, not just murderers with the rest of us playing the role of cannon fodder. C'mon Kid, do you also believe slaves are free?

That doesn't mean you can disobey particular commandments. New Age Spiritualists like to quote the Bible where it says God is Love but they disobey many of God's commandments.

What commandments are broken by loving God and others? Remember, those two commandments are how Jesus "summarized" the entire law of the prophets - everything he taught is based on them. Thats keeping it simple... But Jesus did reject some of the OT stuff, like divorce law. Mosaic divorce law! And cleanliness and dietary laws, Sabbath, etc...

That's why Christ was crucified. To pay a debt for our sins. It's like stealing 300 dollars from someone and then telling the person you were sorry but not paying the person back. I can forgive someone for it but that doesn't mean that the debt is not still owed.

If you forgive the theft of $300 the person doesn't have to pay it back. The way you are defining forgiveness means God can forgive Christians and then throw them into the lake of fire with the rest of us (or whatever the punishment is).

Why would God crucify himself to pay for our sins just so God can forgive us? Seems like God was joining us in some way, people suffer all sorts of horrible things and people tend to ask "why God" when they are suffering - so God joined us in our suffering, not so God could forgive us, but so we could forgive God.

Forgiveness involves restitution, righting the wrong. You still have to go back and fix things.

It may be easier to forgive someone who pays restitution but it aint required. I've long forgiven people who've wronged me without getting restitution or even a simple apology and I've done the same to others myself, that doesn't mean the remorse doesn't exist. But what is the restitution paid by Christians? According to you, its Jesus' crucifixion. But in that prayer Jesus said the restitution is forgiving trespassers - and he didn't say anything about getting restitution from the trespassers first. Jesus preached against an eye for an eye and thats how you've just defined forgiveness.

I said some sins. As for drug dealers, jail is more merciful than the hell that they put families through. Drug dealers are scum.

Dude, you live in the drug dealing capital of the world - turn on a TV I dont blame alcohol dealers for the actions of drunks, or the dealers of Oxycontin for Rush Limbaugh's doctor shopping. But be careful there, Ben... Jesus gave a bunch of drunk people barrels of wine. Drug dealers aint responsible for us any more than alcohol, tobacco, gun and car dealers are to blame for irresponsible consumers of their products. I smoked for 30 years and if diabetes dont get me (high fructose corn syrup and lousy diets are killing far more people than illegal drugs) I figure it'll be something from tobacco. But I wont blame the tobacco farmers and dealers. Thats a cop out.

But what makes 'good' people good? The bible says that only God is good.

Free will, gotta have it before one can choose good over evil.

I don't like dope pushers.

One of em stole my dad's snowblower just to feed his habit.

Blaming the innocent for the actions of the guilty?

[kentonio]

No, I believe that the same people who did abortions before they were legal were the same as those who did abortion after it became legal.

Then you're an idiot considering that the clinics were opened after legalization.

So, you don't care about women at all. You care about killing babies, first and foremost. That much is clear.

Absolutely, me and all pro-choice people just care about killing babies. It gets us up in the morning and helps us sleep at night.

Well I do. I think it's wrong to kill babies and wrong to kill women wanting to kill their babies, and I think anyone who does either ought to be prosecuted.

So you believe that women should be forced to carry children to term for 9 months even if the child is unwanted? How about rape? Incest? Oh and don't give me that crap about it being 'wrong to kill women wanting to kill their babies', a few pages back you were full of smugness about how they deserved to die.

Then you cannot defend your statement that legal abortions are infinitely safer.

Juggling with wooden batons is safer than juggling with chainsaws. I have no statistics to support this, but I'm happy to say it anyway.

Well what is happening today is that legal abortions are being performed by ill-trained staff, in unkempt and unsanitary conditions. And people like you only care whether it's legal, not about their health and welfare.

No, you've taken a few cases of poorly run clinics and extrapolated that out to represent all providers. Which is retarded. Oh and don't try and claim you care about womens welfare while trying to remove their rights.

What evidence do you have that illegal abortions were performed in an unkempt environment? I should think that a woman's foremost concern would be this, but we do not see this. Instead we see concern about the poor doctor's manners. That she thought this significant enough to merit mention speaks volumes about the conditions back then.

No it really doesn't. If you genuinely believe that poor women in the middle of this century had access to clean safe environments for abortion then you need to read a book or two.

You did say this. If you are opposed to non-doctors performing abortions, you should have said so. Instead you said it was above your pay grade.

No, you did actually. If a legitimate medical community declares that a medical procedure can be carried out by trained medical staff who are not doctors, then I believe them. This does not equate to the idea that its equally safe for anyone to do the same procedure anywhere.

What kind of cells are they? People are made up out of cells, but people cells are not the same as dog or cat cells.

Let me just ask one question here: Do you believe in evolution? I feel like I should be prepared.

Then why don't we let God do his work then?

Because he doesn't exist?

[kentonio]

How's that working out for you?

Pretty awesome actually. I've cleansed away any final traces of christian guilt left over from childhood indoctrination and now enjoy life quite considerable.

[Kidlicious]

Pretty awesome actually. I've cleansed away any final traces of christian guilt left over from childhood indoctrination and now enjoy life quite considerable.

OK. It sounded as though you wanted to find God so much that you search for him to the ends of the earth and never found him, which made me feel bad for you.

[kentonio]

OK. It sounded as though you wanted to find God so much that you search for him to the ends of the earth and never found him, which made me feel bad for you.

It was more the idea that if billions of people believe in something, there's probably something in it. I eventually decided that was not the case. If people find comfort in it though, all the best to them, as long as they don't use it to try and impact on other peoples lives.

[Kidlicious]

Berz,
1) There is much sarcasm in the Bible, and this is a perfect example. Adam and Eve wanted to be equal to God. That's the irony.
2) Don't really get what your point is on free will. But to try to keep it going I'll say that men are not born free, but are slaves because of original sin.
3) On Christ and the Law, He doesn't oppose any part of the Law. The problem was that the Isrealites interpreted it for their own purposes because they didit love God and others. For example people were getting divorcez for selfish reasons which was never blessed by God.

[Kidlicious]

It was more the idea that if billions of people believe in something, there's probably something in it. I eventually decided that was not the case. If people find comfort in it though, all the best to them, as long as they don't use
it to try and impact on other peoples lives.

O no one can find God like that.

[Kidlicious]

Berz read the creation story in the context of the Bible as a whole. You've got yourself in an aweful mess there.

[Ben Kenobi]

If you forgive the theft of $300 the person doesn't have to pay it back. The way you are defining forgiveness means God can forgive Christians and then throw them into the lake of fire with the rest of us (or whatever the punishment is).

Purgatory. Again, restitution must be made.

Why would God crucify himself to pay for our sins just so God can forgive us?

One, because he loves us.

Two, because there was no one else who could. Christ is sinless. If I'm in debt, and everyone is in debt and there are no assets, how can anyone repay God for our sins? Christ could because he was the passover lamb without blemish. He was sinless. he paid the debt by his crucifixion and death on a cross. The is why grain offerings and animal offerings as imperfect sacrifices are no longer needed.

Seems like God was joining us in some way, people suffer all sorts of horrible things and people tend to ask "why God" when they are suffering - so God joined us in our suffering, not so God could forgive us, but so we could forgive God.

But it was not God who caused suffering. Adam did not suffer in the Garden. Man did. Man sinned against God by his own will. The debt we owed to God was paid by Christ.

It may be easier to forgive someone who pays restitution but it aint required.

It is, if at all possible.

I've long forgiven people who've wronged me without getting restitution or even a simple apology and I've done the same to others myself, that doesn't mean the remorse doesn't exist.

Oh no, I'm not saying that. Biblically it's 7x for theft. Not only do you have to seek forgiveness, but you have to try to fix what damage you caused.

But what is the restitution paid by Christians?

We offer our lives to Him. That is our restitution.

According to you, its Jesus' crucifixion.

Jesus' crucifixion is the cost that God laid down and the price that was paid. Our sins were paid for and the restitution is to accept Christ.

But in that prayer Jesus said the restitution is forgiving trespassers - and he didn't say anything about getting restitution from the trespassers first. Jesus preached against an eye for an eye and thats how you've just defined forgiveness.

What did he say to the woman who had 5 husbands? "Go forth and sin no more". That was her restitution.

Dude, you live in the drug dealing capital of the world

I lived in Vancouver east side. I'm well aware of dealers and their nonsense.

I dont blame alcohol dealers for the actions of drunks

When they sell to children I have a problem with it.

But be careful there, Ben... Jesus gave a bunch of drunk people barrels of wine.

And I'm sure he said that we need to be giving crack out to kids too.

Drug dealers aint responsible for us any more than alcohol, tobacco, gun and car dealers are to blame for irresponsible consumers of their products.

Are there gun pushers? Tobacco pushers?

I smoked for 30 years and if diabetes dont get me (high fructose corn syrup and lousy diets are killing far more people than illegal drugs) I figure it'll be something from tobacco. But I wont blame the tobacco farmers and dealers. Thats a cop out.

You're an adult. If an adult chooses to use drugs, that is their decision. But if I see dope pushers on the street selling dope to kids, yes, I'm gonna intervene. I've been offered dope many times and it's what you do if you want to piss me off.

Sure maybe I end up knifed on the street someday but that will be one less kid hooked up on drugs.

Free will, gotta have it before one can choose good over evil.

Them choosing to do good? So the evil they do doesn't matter?

[Ben Kenobi]

Then you're an idiot considering that the clinics were opened after legalization.

Ran by the same people who'd been running their own shop for years. You think they didn't take their records over with them?

Absolutely, me and all pro-choice people just care about killing babies. It gets us up in the morning and helps us sleep at night.

So why do you believe that the mother gets a choice, but the child does not?

So you believe that women should be forced to carry children to term for 9 months even if the child is unwanted?

Do you get to kill your toddler when they are unwanted? Your spouse? How about Grandma? Nobody wants her.

Why is it you can kill the child in your womb just because you don't want her. We don't stop being people if we are unwanted.

As for being forced to carry a kiddo for 9 months, you consent to sex. A baby may result. Wow. Don't they teach sex ed anymore these days?

How about rape? Incest?

What about it? Say a gal is raped and gets preggers. Have an abortion and the evidence goes away. How does that help the mother? Helps the rapist.

There are plenty of abortions done to cover up rape. How does it help the child, that is having to pay the penalty for something they are innocent. A child is not responsible for what their father did.

a few pages back you were full of smugness about how they deserved to die.

When a person mugs another person, and they die, you feel sorry for the mugger? The only reason abortionists do them is because the unborn child can't fight back.

I have no statistics

Obviously not.

No, you've taken a few cases of poorly run clinics and extrapolated that out to represent all providers.

Uh, these aren't the poorly run clinics. These are the big boys at least in BC. The big boys would fail a health inspection which is scandalous.

Oh and don't try and claim you care about womens welfare while trying to remove their rights.

How are women helped by abortion? They suffer the complications. They kill their own child. It helps the men because the men are no longer responsible. It's totally awesome. Have sex, knock up the gal and then stop calling. Abortion to the rescue! Yeah, great deal for women, there btw. Not to mention the fact that there are girls in the womb too that kinda end up screwed.

No it really doesn't. If you genuinely believe that poor women in the middle of this century had access to clean safe environments for abortion then you need to read a book or two.

Actually I believe that poor women today do not have access to abortion. You are telling me that a gal can just walk in and it's paid for? At least back then they weren't gonna die on the operating table like they do now.

No, you did actually. If a legitimate medical community declares that a medical procedure can be carried out by trained medical staff who are not doctors

So if RJR tells you that cigarettes don't cause cancer you believe them too? Just a teensy weensy conflict of interest there, no.

Let me just ask one question here: Do you believe in evolution? I feel like I should be prepared.

Answer the question. What kind of cells are they? People cells aren't the same as cat and dog cells.

Because he doesn't exist?

So why bring him up? You stated that God is the biggest abortionist of all. Well unfortunately, for all of us, our days are numbered. Society believes people deliberately shortening other people's days is taboo.

Now you need to show me why that's different for kiddos in the womb. Sure maybe they will only live to 78 instead of 79 but a life is wasted at 78 so it's ok to get a jump on it.

[MrFun]

What about it? Say a gal is raped and gets preggers. Have an abortion and the evidence goes away. How does that help the mother? Helps the rapist.

She goes to the law enforcement to get a rape kit done FIRST, so they can obtain the evidence to catch the rapist. THEN she can go and have an abortion.

[Ben Kenobi]

She goes to the law enforcement to get a rape kit done FIRST, so they can obtain the evidence to catch the rapist. THEN she can go and have an abortion.

If she's an adult, sure. But if she's a minor and goes to Planned Parenthood, this is what they do for her.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtyJ_7ZFgEw

Isn't Planned Parenthood all kinds of awesome?