The dinkelberry gang want to run posters off

[Ben Kenobi]

Yep, you sound like a pacifist.

Last I checked I wasn't in a position of authority to decide these things. This is a statement of fact. If they can't negotiate peacefully then there will be war over it.

[giblets]

Right... so you don't want a war to happen, but you also support the idea that the Canadian government would be entitled to demand parts of Quebec?

[Ben Kenobi]

Right... so you don't want a war to happen, but you also support the idea that the Canadian government would be entitled to demand parts of Quebec?

I believe that Canada is entitled to defend their citizens. Self determination should decide where the border is drawn and separation is a de facto plebescite.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well, I'm glad to know you wouldn't defend the CSA. I mean, they never negotiated their way out of the US.

Quite the opposite. Buchanan let them go. Buchanan could have used force to keep them in the Union, but he let them secede. Lincoln chose to contest secession, and the Civil War came as a result.

[giblets]

I believe that Canada is entitled to defend their citizens. Self determination should decide where the border is drawn and separation is a de facto plebescite.

So you're advocating violence for the sake of self determination. I don't see any pacifism there.

[giblets]

Quite the opposite. Buchanan let them go. Buchanan could have used force to keep them in the Union, but he let them secede. Lincoln chose to contest secession, and the Civil War came as a result.

Buchanan held that secession was illegal. So no, he did not recognize the Confederacy. But sure, he was more of a pacifist than you.

[Ben Kenobi]

So you're advocating violence for the sake of self determination.

Not at all. I believe that the separatists should accept the results of any vote held and negotiate peacefully with the government of Canada should they win. I believe that self-determination ought to be respected on both sides, on those who wish to stay and those who wish to leave.

You are interpreting statements of what I believe will happen to coincide with what I believe ought to happen. The two are not the same.

[Ben Kenobi]

Buchanan held that secession was illegal. So no, he did not recognize the Confederacy.

He did not recognize them, but he did not invade them either. Lincoln chose to escalate to invasion. Had Lincoln let them go, there would not have been a civil war.

[giblets]

Not at all. I believe that the separatists should accept the results of any vote held and negotiate peacefully with the government of Canada should they win. I believe that self-determination ought to be respected on both sides, on those who wish to stay and those who wish to leave.

You are interpreting statements of what I believe will happen to coincide with what I believe ought to happen. The two are not the same.

Saying "I dislike war and would prefer if it didn't happen" doesn't make you a pacifist. If you were a pacifist, you would refuse to use war as a means to an end, which you apparently don't because you support using war to enforce self-determination.

[giblets]

He did not recognize them, but he did not invade them either. Lincoln chose to escalate to invasion. Had Lincoln let them go, there would not have been a civil war.

And? The separatists never carried out a peaceful negotiation with the federal government. Lincoln was entitled to defend US citizens.

[Ben Kenobi]

Saying "I dislike war and would prefer if it didn't happen" doesn't make you a pacifist.

If I were in charge of negotiations, I would accept the results of the plebescites as legally binding. If the new 'nation' of Quebec refused to accept the plebescite, I would wait and see what they would do. I would expel anyone in Canada from Quebec back to Quebec who attempted to assert their authority outside of the areas granted to the new nation of Quebec.

If the Separatists chose to invade then by all means. Let the world see them for what they are.

If you were a pacifist, you would refuse to use war as a means to an end, which you apparently don't because you support using war to enforce self-determination.

I never said that I would use force to enforce self determination. If I did, why would I insist upon a legally binding plebescite? That is a peaceful way to sort the issue, and we do have a plebescite, the vote on separation.

[Ben Kenobi]

And? The separatists never carried out a peaceful negotiation with the federal government.

Quite the opposite. They did just that. Buchanan declared it to be illegal but was unwilling to intervene with force.

Lincoln was entitled to defend US citizens.

Lincoln launched an invasion rather then acknowledge self determination.

[giblets]

If I were in charge of negotiations, I would accept the results of the plebescites as legally binding. If the new 'nation' of Quebec refused to accept the plebescite, I would wait and see what they would do. I would expel anyone in Canada from Quebec back to Quebec who attempted to assert their authority outside of the areas granted to the new nation of Quebec.

If the Separatists chose to invade then by all means. Let the world see them for what they are.



I never said that I would use force to enforce self determination. If I did, why would I insist upon a legally binding plebescite? That is a peaceful way to sort the issue, and we do have a plebescite, the vote on separation.

How are you supposed to expel people without using force? Politely ask them to leave? If you send troops then hasn't the war already started?

[Ben Kenobi]

How are you supposed to expel people without using force? Politely ask them to leave? If you send troops then hasn't the war already started?

Arrest them and deport them back to Quebec.

[giblets]

Quite the opposite. They did just that. Buchanan declared it to be illegal but was unwilling to intervene with force.



Lincoln launched an invasion rather then acknowledge self determination.

Nope, they tried to assert their authority in counties that voted against secession so Lincoln had to expel them. It took a while. After the world saw them for what they really are, they were eliminated.