Racist Poster

[Ben Kenobi]

He claims that having your child bullied is equivalent to having your child confiscated and sold - this from somebody who thinks that bullying of homosexual children should be "protected speech." I honestly can't tell if he's trolling or if he's retarded.

Where have I ever said that gay children should be bullied?

I disagree with homosexuality, and I do not believe that someone stating that they believe homosexuality to be wrong to constitute bullying.

I've seen a good friend get beaten up because her father was a longshoreman who voted against the union.

[Ben Kenobi]

You can't have it both ways.

I've stood on plenty of picket lines before. You can make your point peacefully and respectfully, and people will respect your picket line.

Bullying tactics are very counterproductive. I believe the only way to maintain a strong picket line is in the court of public opinion, not in intimidation.

Calling scabs 'scum' shows how out of touch you are in this workforce. You would take offense if someone were to beat you up for going to your job everyday, so why do that to someone else?

You're either in favour of scabs or not. Which side are you on?

I'm on the union side. Thugs like you help management more than anybody else. What, were you a plant or something?

Scum who cross picket lines deserve everything they get.

Intimidation is the worst thing anyone can do. Absolutely worst thing. If your cause is just then you don't need to intimidate people from crossing the picket line.

[DaShi]

Ben is an illegal immigrant taking a job away from a hardworking American citizen. We all know where he stands on the issue.

[giblets]

Not at all. I never supported abolishing Unions. I don't like them, but if workers have the right to bargain individually, they also have the right to do so collectively.

Where I disagree, is that unions should be able to enforce their collective bargaining on workers who do not want to be a part of their union. Surely you can see the difference.

I never claimed you want to abolish unions. I claimed you want the state to coerce employers into not making an agreement with a union in which the employer agrees to not hire non-union workers. If the employer has the right to not hire non-union workers, why shouldn't the employer be able to make such an agreement?

Does "most" not mean greater than half? A majority of unions are now solely public sector. Given that the private sector, at least in the US is around 2/3rds of total employment, this means that private sector unions are much less common as a proportion of their sector than they are in the public sector.

The word "most" tends to be used when the alternatives are unusual. You made it sound like public sector union members are more than a slim majority of union members in the US.

Depends on where they want to work. Many public sector employees are required to join a union.

I said federal. Do you understand what that word means? The US Federal Government does not require that any of its employees join a union. So no, it doesn't "depend".

Government isn't forcing anything. They are protecting the right of the worker to bargain with their employer as an individual not as part of the union. They are enforcing restrictions on the Union preventing them from forming closed shops.

People have every right insist on bargaining as an individual as a precondition to being hired in every state, and in states that aren't "right-to-work" employers have every right to not hire someone who won't join a union.

As a result the businesses in these jurisdictions are flourishing. Clearly the unions have gone beyond protecting workers, and have crossed over to hurting the employers.

By what economic metric are "right-to-work" states doing better?

[giblets]

He claims that having your child bullied is equivalent to having your child confiscated and sold - this from somebody who thinks that bullying of homosexual children should be "protected speech." I honestly can't tell if he's trolling or if he's retarded.

If he's spent this much time trolling (20,000 posts) he has no life.

[Ben Kenobi]

I never claimed you want to abolish unions.

Thank you. Now we are getting somewhere.

I claimed you want the state to coerce employers into not making an agreement with a union in which the employer agrees to not hire non-union workers.

WTF?

Never said anything of the sort.

Right to work laws are simple. No one has to belong to a union in order to work anywhere. I'm not sure where you're getting what you said, but you've twisted yourself all up.

The individual should be able to bargain with his employer, whether some or most of the employees are union is irrelevant. If the union has the support of the workers, they will be able to fund themselves and keep their membership up through the voluntary recruitment of workers.

Most unions are like Thoth, a pile of thugs, which is why they steal money from workers rather than soliciting support.

If the employer has the right to not hire non-union workers, why shouldn't the employer be able to make such an agreement?

Employers never set up a union. Why would they?

The word "most" tends to be used when the alternatives are unusual.

Perhaps that's how you use it, but all most means is that the quantity is somewhat greater than half.

You made it sound like public sector union members are more than a slim majority of union members in the US.

All I said is that most union members are public sector. That's a fact. What you choose to interpret from that is incorrect.

Do you understand what that word means? The US Federal Government does not require that any of its employees join a union. So no, it doesn't "depend".

Like the Postal service?

employers have every right to not hire someone who won't join a union.

Why would an employer refuse to hire someone for not being in a union? I can see why the union would want to enforce this restriction, but why would the employer enforce this.

You seem to be misunderstanding. Unions suck employers dry. The employers do not like unions.

The employer already has the right not to hire anyone. What right to work does, is give the employer the opportunity to hire someone who is not a union member. Closed shops prevent this which is why they are closed shops!

By what economic metric are "right-to-work" states doing better?

Already referred to in the thread. I know you don't agree, but that's why we are having this discussion.

[Thoth]

Most unions are like Thoth, a pile of thugs, which is why they steal money from workers rather than soliciting support.

Of course they are. That's why union workers make more money than non union workers.


Try getting out into the real world every now and again.

[Ben Kenobi]

That's why union workers make more money than non union workers.

Which is why you have to beat up scabs to keep people who are better workers from stealing your jobs.

Which is also why most unions are dying out. Sad. If you want to pay more for less, go with a union.

Try getting out into the real world every now and again

Real world has what, unions at 12 percent of the private sector?

Unions are irrelevant to the real world.

[Hauldren Collider]

You can't have it both ways. You're either in favour of scabs or not. Which side are you on?


Scum who cross picket lines deserve everything they get.

Scabs

Right to work laws

Unions have been driving jobs to Virginia to years. I hope they never repeal the union laws in Washington and Wisconsin and Ohio. I like it here, I'd hate to move.

[Thoth]

Which is why you have to beat up scabs to keep people who are better workers from stealing your jobs.

Which is also why most unions are dying out. Sad. If you want to pay more for less, go with a union.

Idiot. Unions aren't dying out in spite of what your corporate masters want you to think. If you want a decent deal from your corporate masters you'll need a union. Individual workers have no chance of getting a decent deal without a CBA.

Real world has what, unions at 12 percent of the private sector?

Unions are irrelevant to the real world.

Unions are only irrelevant if you don't want a decent deal from the corporation that you slave for.

[Thoth]

Scabs

Right to work laws

Unions have been driving jobs to Virginia to years. I hope they never repeal the union laws in Washington and Wisconsin and Ohio. I like it here, I'd hate to move.

It will be a fine day when you actually have to go out and work in the real world.


You will find yourself eating a lot of your own words.

[Ben Kenobi]

Idiot. Unions aren't dying out in spite of what your corporate masters want you to think. If you want a decent deal from your corporate masters you'll need a union. Individual workers have no chance of getting a decent deal without a CBA.

They've been declining for what? Longer than you've been alive? The only area they are growing is in the public sector which isn't the 'real world' anyways.

My 'corporate master' is the RCC, and the pay is decent.

[Hauldren Collider]

I don't think I'll ever wish I was in a union shop.

And unions are absolutely dying. Public-sector unions were created for the express reason that private sector unions were dying. They've been dying by the day and the hemorrhage of jobs to the South as well as the latest collective bargaining laws across the midwest is one of the final nails in the coffin of one of the most wealth- and job-destroying social programs in history.

I will not miss them one bit.

[DaShi]

HC, I hope you become a scab.

[giblets]

WTF?

Never said anything of the sort.

Right to work laws are simple. No one has to belong to a union in order to work anywhere. I'm not sure where you're getting what you said, but you've twisted yourself all up.

In other words, employers can't agree to not hire non-union workers. I haven't twisted anything.

Most unions are like Thoth, a pile of thugs, which is why they steal money from workers rather than soliciting support.

Why are you calling Thoth a thug? Just because he supports unions?

Employers never set up a union. Why would they?

So what? If the employees form a union, the employer needs to negotiate with the union. One possible offer an employer can make during negotiations, if they live in a free state, is to not hire anyone who doesn't want to join a union.

All I said is that most union members are public sector. That's a fact. What you choose to interpret from that is incorrect.

What you tried to claim is that private sector unions are a rarity now, which is baloney.

Like the Postal service?

Good example, membership in a union is voluntary for employees of the postal service.

Why would an employer refuse to hire someone for not being in a union? I can see why the union would want to enforce this restriction, but why would the employer enforce this.

Because of a clause in a contract to buy labor from a group of collectively bargaining workers that the employer voluntarily agreed to. Of course once they make that agreement, they wouldn't mind if the state government enacted legislation that freed them from upholding their part of the bargain.

The employer already has the right not to hire anyone. What right to work does, is give the employer the opportunity to hire someone who is not a union member. Closed shops prevent this which is why they are closed shops!

So they already have the right to not hire non-union members, but agreeing not to as part of a contract made with a union should be forbidden?

Already referred to in the thread. I know you don't agree, but that's why we are having this discussion.

Not sure what you're talking about.