Racist Poster

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, explain how paying union dues is equivalent to:
1. Being beaten and possibly killed if you fail to work hard enough

Ever face union intimidation? Unions will do just that if you work too hard.

2. Having your children being confiscated and sold

Having your kids bullies by unionised staff? Seen it.

3. Being beaten and possibly killed if you try to change jobs

Or daring to cross a picket line. Seen it.

4. Not receiving any compensation for your work except for a small amount of food and shelter

Been there.

5. Not receiving any legal protection for assault or other crimes against your person

And we haven't even got to union blacklisting and intimidation! Wow. Unions are very powerful and if you cross them they have no respect for individual rights. Why should they? Good employees are anathema to a union because the good employees have no need of one.

[Ben Kenobi]

Gribbler:

Try putting out triple quota and punking them and see what they do then.

[loinburger]

Well that was predictable

[giblets]

Shouldn't they have to ask first whether or not they represent me? They don't represent me. The only people they represent is themselves, which is why the money goes where it does, from the employees and the employers to the union.

I don't know what planet you're from, but unions are democratically controlled and if the workers think their union is crap they can get new leadership or get rid of the union.

Maybe 100 years ago. Not now. Unions are formed by bureaucrats that want to make money off both employees and employers. If they sincerely represented the employee, then membership would be voluntary.

Membership is always voluntary, because working at a union shop is voluntary.

It's not the business of the state, nor is it the business of the union. Union is not the employer, if it were I wouldn't be unionized. That's how it works. Unions never permit their own staff to be unionized. I like being able to negotiate bonuses and perks for myself.

So don't work at a place where union membership is required. You just want the government to force all workplaces to conform to your preferences, apparently.

They have the right to set the requirements for themselves. But here's the caveat. Employees who are not members of the union are under no requirement to join the union. I have the right to negotiate for myself, and unless I choose to voluntarily join the union, I do not lose that right just because some members wish to negotiate as a collective.

Does this mean that I deserve the same benefits as the unionized staff? No, of course not. But it does mean I can negotiate my own benefits and the union has no right to interfere.

Fine, just don't whine to the government to force employers to hire non-union members.

[Ben Kenobi]

I don't know what planet you're from, but unions are democratically controlled and if the workers think their union is crap they can get new leadership or get rid of the union.

Like the BC College of Teachers? Often the union is the government and no, you can't elect the leadership.

Membership is always voluntary, because working at a union shop is voluntary.

So is slavery. You don't have to own a slave.

I shouldn't have to join a union just to work. I should be able to work and say no to the union. Unions are democratic? Fine. Ask me to join and collect your dues straight from the employees, not from our paychecks.

So don't work at a place where union membership is required.

Which is why I moved to a free and not a slave state?

You just want the government to force all workplaces to conform to your preferences, apparently.

Well sure. What's wrong with forcing the south to abolish slavery? Same deal here. Unions should be entirely voluntary. If they are good and they are beneficial, they will survive. If they suck they will die. I would love it if the government and public sector unions would just leave me the **** alone.

Fine, just don't whine to the government to force employers to hire non-union members.

Most unions are public sector. So they are government. Most private sector unions have died already because they forced their clients into unemployment.

[BlackCat]

Ehrm, BC College of Teachers isn't a union - British Columbia Teachers' Federation is.

[giblets]

Like the BC College of Teachers? Often the union is the government and no, you can't elect the leadership.

No idea who they are, since BC isn't even in my country.

So is slavery. You don't have to own a slave.

I shouldn't have to join a union just to work. I should be able to work and say no to the union. Unions are democratic? Fine. Ask me to join and collect your dues straight from the employees, not from our paychecks.

The premise behind slavery is that someone is forced to be a slave. I think you might be mentally retarded.

Which is why I moved to a free and not a slave state?

Look, even the most unionized states don't have unionization rates much higher than 25%. Somehow the majority of people have no trouble finding a job that doesn't require union membership.

Well sure. What's wrong with forcing the south to abolish slavery? Same deal here. Unions should be entirely voluntary. If they are good and they are beneficial, they will survive. If they suck they will die. I would love it if the government and public sector unions would just leave me the **** alone.

They are voluntary, so you should be happy. You want to make hiring non-union members involuntary.

Most unions are public sector. So they are government. Most private sector unions have died already because they forced their clients into unemployment.

Public sector accounts for something like half of union membership, so you have a funny definition of "most". In any case, I know that federal employees are not required to join a union, so you should be happy about that. Obviously there is nothing wrong with the government deciding to hire non-union members. The issue is the government forcing the private sector to hire them.

[Guynemer]

You know, comparing anything to slavery, short of slavery itself, is a pretty sure-fire way to lose any support for your argument you may have otherwise had.

[Thoth]

Or daring to cross a picket line. Seen it.

Scabs deserve everything they get.

[SlowwHand]

What union are you in, Thoth?

[Thoth]

What union are you in, Thoth?

I've been a Steelworker and a member of another union (whose name I can't actually recall at the moment) when I was working for the OCC and Labatt's respectively. I've worked in union shops and non union shops over the years. I'll take a union shop over a non union shop any day of the week.

Union dues suck, but nowhere near as hard as having to deal with management douchbags without a shop steward at your back.

[loinburger]

You know, comparing anything to slavery, short of slavery itself, is a pretty sure-fire way to lose any support for your argument you may have otherwise had.

He claims that having your child bullied is equivalent to having your child confiscated and sold - this from somebody who thinks that bullying of homosexual children should be "protected speech." I honestly can't tell if he's trolling or if he's retarded.

[Ben Kenobi]

You want to make hiring non-union members involuntary.

Not at all. I never supported abolishing Unions. I don't like them, but if workers have the right to bargain individually, they also have the right to do so collectively.

Where I disagree, is that unions should be able to enforce their collective bargaining on workers who do not want to be a part of their union. Surely you can see the difference.

Public sector accounts for something like half of union membership, so you have a funny definition of "most".

Does "most" not mean greater than half? A majority of unions are now solely public sector. Given that the private sector, at least in the US is around 2/3rds of total employment, this means that private sector unions are much less common as a proportion of their sector than they are in the public sector.

In any case, I know that federal employees are not required to join a union

Depends on where they want to work. Many public sector employees are required to join a union.

The issue is the government forcing the private sector to hire them

Government isn't forcing anything. They are protecting the right of the worker to bargain with their employer as an individual not as part of the union. They are enforcing restrictions on the Union preventing them from forming closed shops.

As a result the businesses in these jurisdictions are flourishing. Clearly the unions have gone beyond protecting workers, and have crossed over to hurting the employers.

[Ben Kenobi]

Scabs deserve everything they get.

I disagree very strongly with both crossing picket lines and with 'union enforced intimidation' of those who cross picket lines.

We had strikes of our TAs when I was at UBC, which by the broad interpretation meant that by going to the classes that I paid good money for, I was crossing the picket line.

Ask me whether the TAs had the needs of the student body when going on strike? They didn't care. End result, they shut down classes for a few weeks. The profs carried on without them, and they ended up going back and accepting the lesser contract.

The only good that comes from a strike is that you irritate the people who are paying your salaries.

[Thoth]

I disagree very strongly with both crossing picket lines and with 'union enforced intimidation' of those who cross picket lines.

You can't have it both ways. You're either in favour of scabs or not. Which side are you on?


Scum who cross picket lines deserve everything they get.