Christianity ruins families.

[Nikolai]

Okay, so what is the tree's purpose?

Contrary to Kid, I view this as more than merely a metaphor. The tree is our chance to choose. God made humans with a free will. He wants our love and friendship, and neither can come out of a robot. If we HAD to love Him, and HAD to be His friends, he would be no better than any random dictator. What we gave wouldn't be real love, or friendship, as these are things that has to be given out of free will.

Same with good and evil. Man had to be able to choose good(God) or evil(Satan/self interest etc). As such, God made Eden, a paradise where everything were good and available to Adam and Eve. All, except one thing. The tree was the only thing not allowed to touch. By choosing to eat of it, Adam and Eve chose to turn their back on God and everything He had to offer them. They chose themselves and their own desires over God and His friendship.

[Ben Kenobi]

Uhh, I never dropped the original topic. And you never proved my interpretation of John wrong.

I did prove it wrong. Your quote refers to the Day of Preparation, the Friday, not the feast of Unleavened bread, the Thursday. Two different days.

You just forced it fit your view, regardless of what it says. If someone read John, without having ever read the other gospels, I don't think they would arrive at your conclusion about John.

gribbler, I can't even understand how you arrived at this 'conflict'. It's crystal clear to me, crystal clear in John and crystal clear in the synoptics. And crystal clear to everyone else here.

Why don't you walk me through your thought process. You've gone off the rails at some point, but I can't argue further without at least understanding how you came to the concluison that you have.

If Jesus is the "Son of Man" then I don't see how "the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" could mean something else. The Pharisees ask for a sign that he's the messiah and he says he'll be inside the earth for three days and three nights.

This is a more reasonable question. He speaks in parables all the times to the Pharisees. He's referencing Jonah throughout the quote, something the Pharisees should know and be well familiar.

[giblets]

I did prove it wrong. Your quote refers to the Day of Preparation, the Friday, not the feast of Unleavened bread, the Thursday. Two different days.

When it says "day of preparation of the passover" that could very well mean the day before passover. You haven't proven it couldn't!

gribbler, I can't even understand how you arrived at this 'conflict'. It's crystal clear to me, crystal clear in John and crystal clear in the synoptics. And crystal clear to everyone else here.

Why don't you walk me through your thought process. You've gone off the rails at some point, but I can't argue further without at least understanding how you came to the concluison that you have.

No one else here has even offered their opinion on this. It's kind of arrogant to assume they do. And I gave you my reasons, I think "day of preparation of the passover" means the day before passover begins, since the first day of passover is an annual sabbath. And when it refers to that sabbath as a "high day" that seems to support that the notion that it's not an ordinary, weekly sabbath.

This is a more reasonable question. He speaks in parables all the times to the Pharisees. He's referencing Jonah throughout the quote, something the Pharisees should know and be well familiar.

Don't his parables usually involve fictional people?

[Ben Kenobi]

When it says "day of preparation of the passover" that could very well mean the day before passover. You haven't proven it couldn't!

I'm arguing it was the day before the Sabbath. The Friday. The feast of unleavened bread being the Thursday, the day before.

You have to prove that there is a contradiction, gribbler.

The explanation I gave is just one of quite a few that could work.

Don't his parables usually involve fictional people?

All his parables are true, in what they are referencing, but none of them are explicit. By saying, 3 days in the belly of the earth, he is referencing Jonah. It wasn't even clear to the disciples what the heck he was talking about until after he died and rose again.

[giblets]

I'm arguing it was the day before the Sabbath. The Friday. The feast of unleavened bread being the Thursday, the day before.

You have to prove that there is a contradiction, gribbler.

The explanation I gave is just one of quite a few that could work.

Does you explanation account for John's decision to write "of the passover"? Why write about the "day of preparation of the passover" if he's referring to an ordinary "day of preparation"?

All his parables are true, in what they are referencing, but none of them are explicit. By saying, 3 days in the belly of the earth, he is referencing Jonah. It wasn't even clear to the disciples what the heck he was talking about until after he died and rose again.

What I'm asking is, how likely is it that Jesus is giving a parable if his other parables involve fictional people? If it's a parable then it's an unusual one.

[Ben Kenobi]

Does you explanation account for John's decision to write "of the passover"?

In that passage?

"En de paraskeuh tou pascha."

And it was the preparation of the Passover.

A bit lower down, John 19:31

"hoi oun ioudaioi epei paraskeuh en hina me meine epi tou staurou ta somata en to sabbato"

Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, the Jews insisted that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath.

So it was the preparation day, before the Sabbath of the Passover.

What I'm asking is, how likely is it that Jesus is giving a parable if his other parables involve fictional people? If it's a parable then it's an unusual one.

You are caught up in your own definition. A parable is simple a brief story with a moral lesson. The lesson here, is the reference to Jonah and the Babylonians, how they accepted Jonah, and how Jonah lived for three days in the belly of the whale. The primary moral is that the Pharisees need to accept Christ.

Jesus is not being entirely clear here. He is expecting the Pharisees to miss the reference.

[Nikolai]

People, you don't trust Ben on much, but theology is a thing he is well versed in. Not everytime I agree on his Catholic views, but this is common understanding in Christianity.

[giblets]

What about the reference to a the sabbath being a "high day"? Is it normal to refer to a weekly sabbath that way?

The Pharisees need to accept Jesus, so he intentionally speaks ambiguously so that they won't understand him and consequently won't accept him? Why doesn't he want the pharisees to accept him?

[Kidlicious]

Contrary to Kid, I view this as more than merely a metaphor.

I didn't say it was merely a metaphor, although it might just be one. Whether the actual event took place or not, isn't important to me, except that the concept of Original Sin depends on it. Without the concept of Original Sin, some might argue that we don't need to be saved, which is the wrong way to think.

I don't disagree with Free Will, just with the implication that God doesn't know what we will choose. He allows us to have desires to disobey him and to be temped, because he knows that whether or not we choose to or not, we will be ok. Likewise, he knew forehand that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit after he put it before them. He created Adam and Eve sinners, so technically the eating of the forbiden fruit did not bring sin into the world, but for rhetorical purposes it did.

[Kidlicious]

What I'm asking is, how likely is it that Jesus is giving a parable if his other parables involve fictional people? If it's a parable then it's an unusual one.

It's not the first time that He referenced scripture like that, although I can't think of a specific other time right now.

[Kidlicious]

What about the reference to a the sabbath being a "high day"? Is it normal to refer to a weekly sabbath that way?

The Pharisees need to accept Jesus, so he intentionally speaks ambiguously so that they won't understand him and consequently won't accept him? Why doesn't he want the pharisees to accept him?

For one, they are the "Children of the Devil." Second, if they do accept him they won't have him crucified and his mission will not be completed.

[Ben Kenobi]

What about the reference to a the sabbath being a "high day"? Is it normal to refer to a weekly sabbath that way?

Not in the text. It's an interpolation. The actual greek says nothing about it being a high day, only that it was the preparation before the sabbath.

The Pharisees need to accept Jesus, so he intentionally speaks ambiguously so that they won't understand him and consequently won't accept him? Why doesn't he want the pharisees to accept him?

He who has ears, let them hear.

[giblets]

Not in the text. It's an interpolation. The actual greek says nothing about it being a high day, only that it was the preparation before the sabbath.

John 19:31?

[Ben Kenobi]

I quoted the Greek. It's not there in the Greek.

[giblets]

You expect me to believe you understand Greek? I've looked at several translations and they all think John 19:31 says it was a "special sabbath" or a "high day".