Christianity ruins families.

[Ming]

Their faith is not as strong as mine because their God did not send his only Son as a sacrifice so that they may live and be free from sin.

So you believe in your Myths, and they believe in theirs... What makes your myth any better than theirs? They probably think your myth is not as good as theirs. And none of you have any proof either way. It all comes down to faith.

So how do you prove your faith is stronger than theirs? Faith is Faith. And who are you to claim that you faith is stonger than theirs when you don't even understand their faith.

There are tons of different religions out their, what makes yours so special?
And if you only answer is a unproveable myth, they all have them too.

[Berzerker]

Yes I do accept everything in the Bible as absolute truth.

So what was "generally" about? How is that not subjective? At least I let the science lead me to my belief system, if a conflict arises the science wins over existing beliefs. Thats more objective than your "absolute truth", and I'd like for you to show me where in Genesis it says God created the waters and the universe. Heaven and Earth are not what you think... We aint even talking about the same "God".

Agreeing with a bunch of stuff Jesus said doesn't mean you gotta buy into everything in the book...

And I've already asked you this, what makes you think that you can find out about God by observing the universe?

If God created the universe, the blueprint gives us insights into the Creator. We're just reading different books, but mine can be edited.

You're being stiff-necked. I've told you serveral times. God doesn't kill his children.

But that was the plan, right? Jesus had to die for our sins, true? How do you remove God from his own plan? God showed his love by having us kill his son, and you're here chastising me for subjectivity. Sorry, the creator (if there is 1) of the universe aint down here engaging in human sacrifice in the name of love.

Much less having people executed for gathering firewood on the Sabbath!

[Robert]

The veneration of the cross is dated to Helena's discovery of the True cross. The actual feast day and celebration was celebrated long before this time.

The veneration of the cross is only part of Good Friday.

This is not about the veneration of the cross, it's about the crucifixion of Christ.
Some believe that friday might have been a day for fasting and praying during the first 3 centuries of christianity, but not connected to the crucifixion.

BTW, do you believe that Helena has found the real cross?

Tertullian goes back to the late 2nd century. He's as old as the oldest biblical manuscripts.

Please show me the exact quotes of Tertullian, not the interpretation of the quotes.

[Robert]

So you believe in your Myths, and they believe in theirs... What makes your myth any better than theirs? They probably think your myth is not as good as theirs. And none of you have any proof either way. It all comes down to faith.

It's not just the myths. It's also the message the myths try to tell.
I personally believe that the main message of christianity is sane, and more important: is in line with my own experiences. (ie. who I am, what I do, what I can't, etc.)

As I said earlier in this thread, the story of the original sin, in example, has imho a very strong message and analyzation of the 'human problem'. Apart from the question if this really happened or is only a parable is less important to me then the message. I think it's a very keen observation for such an old text.

Another example could be the way the main characters in the Bible are displayed. All are fallable people who make huge mistakes. That's not in line with how simular stories from those times tell about kings and their main characters. The Bible has in general a pretty realistic view on people, imho. King David, Moses, Salomon, they all have moments of huge weakness. They're all are portrayed as sinners. Despite their huge achievements it is shown that they are also selfish, careless, caring about their image, etc. We're not talking about 'normal' kings in the Bible, like Achab or Jerobeam. No, David, Salomon and Moses, the key persons of the Bible.

But in the end it's only the message that can convince me. Is it a good one or is it bollocks.

[DaShi]

So are the characters in the Crime and Punishment but I don't see you worshiping Dostoyevsky.

[Robert]

The characters make it trustworthy, the message makes it worthy to follow / worship God.

BTW, as far as I know, Dostoyevsky was a christian himself
Next time use an atheistic author (or did he write Crime and Punishment in his atheistic years? Too lazy to look it up)

[DaShi]

Does it matter?

[Robert]

No, that's why my official response was in the first line of my post.

[DaShi]

The Bible is terrible literature. The characters are poorly developed with outlandish origin stories and the plot is filled with holes and lacks continuity. Then there are the Psalms tacked on. Worse than Bumblebutt's LotR songs.

Of course, if you base you beliefs on crap literature, you aren't but a few steps from Scientology.

[Ben Kenobi]

This is not about the veneration of the cross, it's about the crucifixion of Christ.
Some believe that friday might have been a day for fasting and praying during the first 3 centuries of christianity, but not connected to the crucifixion.

That's rather silly. Yes, it was a day of fasting and prayer, but it's always been tied to the crucifixion, just as holy thursday has been tied to the last supper.

As for Helena finding the true cross, I see no reason to doubt the account.

[Robert]

How do you know it was tied to the crucifixion?

No reason to doubt Helena? Finding a piece of wood 3 centuries after the crucifixion? why would the Romans even have kept just another cross? How would she know it's the real cross? There are a zillion reasons to doubt it.

[Ming]

It's also the message the myths try to tell.
I personally believe that the main message of christianity is sane, and more important: is in line with my own experiences. (ie. who I am, what I do, what I can't, etc.)

Thanks for actually agreeing with my point. Even you realize it's JUST a personal belief. You have done a great job describing why it's a good personal belief for you. OUTSTANDING. But other people have reasons for believing what they believe, and their reasons are probably as good if not better than yours.

Ultimately, there is NO PROOF for any religion, or lack of belief in a "god". And because of this, it has to come down to faith or personal beliefs. And everybody is different! To make a claim that your belief is better, or faith is stronger than anybody else is simply pure ego, and can NOT be supported.

[Robert]

I agree with you that faith is personal. (that's why I deliberately placed all those IMHOs and "personally"s in my post)

I disagree that you can't have the opinion that yours is the 'best'. I doubt it's wise to express yourself that way though.

Your main mistake, imho, is that you believe that the believer 'owns' his own belief. If I build a car myself, and claim that my car is the best, then it can be a matter of ego. If a muslim believes that Islam is the best, then that has nothing to do with his ego. He is following an opinion / vision on life, that was not made by him. He just believes it's right.

Not to mention of course that people always have the right to believe that stuff they prefer is better for others. Especially if it's about life or death (in your opinion). If John believes that people who drive red cars will die in a crash, and he really believes it, then he would be a cruel criminal if he would not try to warn red-car drivers. If I believe that your beer is poisioned, and I'm sitting next to you, I would be evil if I would not warn you.

In the end though, the decision is yours. I'm not supposed to empty your beer can against your will, unless I have proof. and you're right, I have no proof, thus I should go no further then warn you. Maybe twice, but then let it go. I think that counts for all that have faith (or have faith that there's nothing). Don't continue to push people into believes that you can't even proof.

[Ming]

Sure... as can be seen from MANY posters here, people believe that they are right and everybody else is wrong In many cases, it is simply pure ego, since there is no proof or support for some of the beliefs.

Don't continue to push people into believes that you can't even proof.

While I might have said it differently, that is the point I'm trying to make. "SOME" people seem to want to do just that, with absolutly no proof... discounting everybodies else's beliefs, with nothing to back up theirs but simple faith. Faith is a wonderful thing, but it varies by person. People have faith in different things. And NOBODY can really claim they have MORE or less faith than somebody else simply because that person doesn't believe like they do. It's very possible that the person does have more Faith, but just in something else.

I'm sure most people would like to think that their religion is the true religion... but face it, there are many different relgions out there... and each have their own strong supporters and believers... THEY ALL HAVE STRONG FAITH IN WHAT THEY BELIEVE. They all have some kind of sacred texts... Some myth of creation... Some golded rule... Some myth of an after life... most have pomp and ceremony... traditions, and strong beliefs. The problem is, they can't all be right... and none of them can really argue that fact since there is NO PROOF to support any of them, and they all simply rely on FAITH.

So as much as they try to argue they are the true faith, every religion is in the exact same position, and can argue the same...

[rah]

In the end though, the decision is yours. I'm not supposed to empty your beer can against your will, unless I have proof. and you're right, I have no proof, thus I should go no further then warn you. Maybe twice, but then let it go. I think that counts for all that have faith (or have faith that there's nothing). Don't continue to push people into believes that you can't even proof.

Amen
If I drink the beer and don't die. Please STFU.

And for me that the same as when I tell someone "no thank you"