Christianity ruins families.

[Ben Kenobi]

Matthew doesn't speak of purgatory.

Then why does Matthew specify that some sins can be forgiven after judgement?

1st Corinthians speaks of Judgement Day, not purgatory.

Why would judgment day test our works? "Your works will be tested by fire." Why would failing the test, still save you?

[giblets]

This argument for apostolic succession comes from the Keys to the Kingdom of heaven. This is actually an allusion to a similar key given by the priest of melchizedek to the House of David. The Keys are understood to be an inherited title which can be passed on from one to another.

The allusion is here:

Isaiah 22:19-20



When Christ gives Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, he is establishing a dynasty of Christ here on earth, his Church. The keys are to be passed down through the church, the same way as the key of the House of David was passed down through the heirs.

Where does the Catholic Church keep these keys? Does the Pope carry them around or are they in a glass case somewhere?

[Ben Kenobi]

I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

[Nikolai]

This argument for apostolic succession comes from the Keys to the Kingdom of heaven. This is actually an allusion to a similar key given by the priest of melchizedek to the House of David. The Keys are understood to be an inherited title which can be passed on from one to another.

The allusion is here:

Isaiah 22:19-20



When Christ gives Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, he is establishing a dynasty of Christ here on earth, his Church. The keys are to be passed down through the church, the same way as the key of the House of David was passed down through the heirs.

Good explanation, although I don't buy the pope's primacy just yet.

Luther is saying that an excommunication has only external consequences and not spiritual consequences.

The Church can excommunicate a just man, as the Church is made up by fallable men and can make errors. In such a situation, no spiritual consequences would be present. The Church does not stand above God, and when in error, God rules, so to speak.

The rationale for excommunication comes from 1 Cor 5:11

1 Corinthians 5:11

This means that we should associate with people who claims to be Christians, but is in fact not, by proof of their lives. An official excommunication from the church should not be a necessary step as such, the locals should do that fine. 1st Corinthians speak of personal contact and friendship, not official sanction.

Excommunications can be lifted with repentence. No one is ever cut off from God, but there are serious spiritual consequences for excommunication. It is meant to be a wake up call.

I understand that, but question the form.

And that is all the Church is arguing. The sacrament of confession can only be performed by the priest. One can certainly confess your sins to other Christians, but they cannot perform the sacrament.

I see no difference. Priests can hear confession of sins, so can you and I. Priests can guide the person, so can you and I, if we have the wisdom of Christ. Something all Christians can have if their life with God is tight. Priests cannot forgive sins, they can only communicate God's forgiveness, which He gives to all who comes to Him and asks for it, it being in prayer, through a priest or through you and me.

They aren't buying forgiveness. If they are in purgatory, they are already saved.

In case which they do not need anything from us. When we are dead, playtime is over. Either you are saved, or you are not. If you are saved, no further cleansing is required from the living's side. Saving is personal, between the person and God. No good deeds from dead humans can help another person, just as little as yours or mine can, or our money and belongings.

Then why do you baptise? Christ says that you must be born again of water and the spirit.

We baptize because it's the ourward sign of our surrender to God. Anyone who becomes a Christian should baptize, if not, I'd seriously question the seriousness of his conversion. But if you die before you have had the possibility to be baptized, you are still saved.

That a child baptised will be saved.

Yes, I believe so.

[Nikolai]

Then why does Matthew specify that some sins can be forgiven after judgement?

Well, does he now? That statement in Matthew can be taken in more than one way you know.

Why would judgment day test our works? "Your works will be tested by fire." Why would failing the test, still save you?

Your works is not your faith. Faith saves, works is tested by fire. You see, you left our verse 15:

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Which is really weird, as that verse is what supports your claim best. As it can mean more than one thing, I don't buy purgatory just yet though.

[Ben Kenobi]

An official excommunication from the church should not be a necessary step as such, the locals should do that fine. 1st Corinthians speak of personal contact and friendship, not official sanction.

I'm in full agreement, but excommunication is the absolute last step, when all other avenues of accord have been exhausted. The bull of excommunication here, is essentially the pope serving notice to Luther that he would be excommunicated at some point if they didn't reach an understanding on these issues.

Luther wasn't actually excommunicated until after the Council of Trent, where he, Zwingli, and other prominent reformers were invited. Luther declined. The Council was the pope's attempt to reconcile with Luther.

This, btw only applies to Christians. It doesn't apply to non-Christians.

In case which they do not need anything from us.

True. Indulgences are not necessary. They will only shorten the time spent in purgatory.

Either you are saved, or you are not. If you are saved, no further cleansing is required from the living's side.

No, but we know that no evil can be in God's presence. So the venial, unconfessed sins that we bear at our time of death will need to be cleansed away before we can be admitted into heaven.

We baptize because it's the ourward sign of our surrender to God. Anyone who becomes a Christian should baptize, if not, I'd seriously question the seriousness of his conversion. But if you die before you have had the possibility to be baptized, you are still saved.

It's not just an outward sign. It purifies us from the taint of sin. Other then this, everything else is exactly the same as what Catholics believe. It doesn't mean that it prevents us from sinning in the future, just that after we are baptised we are purified from sin.

[MrFun]

You guys who are trying to reason with BK - do you like bashing your head against a brick wall?

[Imran Siddiqui]

He's fine right here, Mr Fun. However, the arguments between Catholic and Protestant readings have been fleshed out for centuries. No one is really convincing anyone here... but it's interesting reading nonetheless.

[Jon Miller]

Catholics love tradition. Most of the ancient churches did not beleive in Papal primacy, as seen in there being Copts and Syrians and Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox and Armenians (and Mar Thomas).

Note that these churches are in some ways more similar to Catholics than the Protestants are though.

JM

[Elok]

Well, our position today is that we were okay with the Pope as "first among equals," ie what the Ecumenical Patriarch is today: wears the biggest hat, gets the most respect, no real power. He might be able to get that back if he dumped the thousand years of accumulated heresies. I don't think that's going to happen though.

[Ben Kenobi]

No one is really convincing anyone here... but it's interesting reading nonetheless.

Yep, I figured it was interesting. Glad you took the time to read through it because it was your question that prompted the response.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It's the thoughtful back and forth between Protestants and Catholics which will continue until the day Jesus comes back . I tend to be more Protestant and more universalist (though I haven't completely worked through what that entails), so my views are slightly different than both in some aspects, though probably more in line with Nikolai's (albeit I have entained thoughts that instead of Hell, Christians are sent to Purgatory to be finally cleansed before they come before God because Jesus, when he went into Hell after the crucifixtion, by conquering death saved everyone, regardless of what they do or believe - then again I also believe in a God of love who would hate to have anyone suffer and be tortured).

[Nikolai]

Discussions like this are fruitful. Civil and interesting.

[Berzerker]

sorry, but the "god(s)" depicted in the Bible is a thug. The creator of existence is not getting pissed off because some guy is gathering firewood. The creator of the universe aint throwing a tantrum because people wont listen to the Pope, or Moses, or Muhammed, or Jesus...

or me

But I do think Jesus was closer to a spiritual "truth"

I like Bill Maher's routine on the discussion between God and Jesus (not you, I mean me)

[Dinner]

Arguing over what people's imaginary friend wants doesn't seem very productive to me.