Christianity ruins families.

[Berzerker]

its kinda fun though, I got some crazy ideas myself

[Barnabas]

Purgatory can not be proved from the bible, but that isn't really a big issue for Catholics, or other old Eastern Apostolic Churches (that don't believe in Purgatory but believe in something similar to it without the word Purgatory)

Catholics believe that God founded a Church, Jesus came to establish a Church. Jesus didn't hand out bibles, he created the Church (you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church), and the Church created the Bible for Herself. The Church is above the Bible.

If a doctrine can be proved to have been believed by Christians, always, it is considered to be true even if it is not clearly defined in the bible.
The Purgatory isn't in the bible, but Christians pre-reformation, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Oriental Orthodox, have always prayed for the sins of the death to be forgiven.
Since people in Heaven don't have sins to be forgiven, and people in Hell are doomed, then other place, which Catholics chose to call Purgatory, must exist, in which people have sins that can be forgiven by the prayers of the people on earth (because of Gods Mercy)

The same happens with prayers to Saints, inscriptions that say stuff like Peter and Paul pray for us! go back to the first centuries of the Christian Era.

BTW, the ideas that sins of death people can be forgiven after their death, and that dead Saints know what goes on on Earth and can listen its inhabitants prayers can be found, quite clearly, in the books that Catholics and Orthodox have in the Old Testament, that neither Jews nor Protestants accept.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Maccabees

"Catholics and Orthodox consider the work to be canonical and part of the Bible. Protestants and Jews reject most of the doctrinal innovations present in the work."

Doctrinal issues that are raised in 2 Maccabees include:
* Prayer for the dead and sacrificial offerings, both to free the dead from sin[6][7]
* Merits of the martyrs
* Intercession of the saints (15:11-17) (at least as seen from a Christian viewpoint)
* Resurrection of the dead

[Ben Kenobi]

Purgatory can not be proved from the bible, but that isn't really a big issue for Catholics

Yes, it can, and Catholics refer to the two passages I quoted above as scriptural evidence for Purgatory. And yes, it's a big deal. Did you not catch that Luther was excommunicated for saying the exact same thing as you did?

The Purgatory isn't in the bible

Yes, it is in the bible, Barnabas. Right in the NT.

BTW, the ideas that sins of death people can be forgiven after their death, and that dead Saints know what goes on on Earth and can listen its inhabitants prayers can be found, quite clearly, in the books that Catholics and Orthodox have in the Old Testament, that neither Jews nor Protestants accept.

Why are you using wikipedia over the Catechism? Wikipedia gets it wrong, again.

The prayers for those who are dead, yes, it's in maccabees, but their sins cannot be forgiven. Those who are in Purgatory are already saved, they are simply relieved of their suffering.

It's hard enough teaching protestants Catholic theology, let alone Catholics...

[giblets]

There are some passages that fit purgatory, but none that require purgatory to be explained, as far as I know.

[Ben Kenobi]

There are some passages that fit purgatory, but none that require purgatory to be explained, as far as I know.

True, they can be interpreted in other ways, but according to the Catholic church, there is scriptural evidence for purgatory, and they refer to the two passages I already quoted.

[Kidlicious]

Catholics believe that God founded a Church, Jesus came to establish a Church. Jesus didn't hand out bibles, he created the Church (you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church), and the Church created the Bible for Herself. The Church is above the Bible.

God created the Bible and every word in it. It's his word. The scriptures have always been the word of God.

Jesus said to obey his commands, and you will be his disciples. You get his commands from the Word.

Furthermore, the Bible says to put your trust in God, not man.

[Kidlicious]

Why, then, did Paul give recommandations on its use? He was converted much later than pentecost.

EDIT: Baptism by the Holy Ghost is not in the Bible btw.

I don't know what you are refering to. I believe that Christ said the disciples would be baptised by fire. He was refering to Pentecost.

[giblets]

God created the Bible and every word in it. It's his word. The scriptures have always been the word of God.

Why didn't he make the bible inerrant?

[giblets]

Maybe God put mistakes in the Bible because he's a liar.

[Kidlicious]

Why didn't he make the bible inerrant?

God's way of thinking is higher that mine or yours. Why not go further and ask why the world isn't inerrant? God is the creator and you are the created. You can't tell God that what he did is an error.

The purpose of the Bible is not for you to look for errors. It's to build a relationship with God. If you seek a relationship with God you will find, by reading the Bible, that God loves you. That's what makes Christianity better than any religion.

What you see as errors doesn't mean a thing.

[Kidlicious]

Why, then, did Paul give recommandations on its use? He was converted much later than pentecost.

Paul gave recommendations because there is nothing sinfull about speaking in tongues (perhaps I should have said it was a different interpretation instead of saying it was a misinterpretation). My point was simply that we Methodists have a different interpretation of Pentecost. Anyone is free to speak in tongues, but not during the service, because others will feel uncomfortable since they don't believe that it's a spiritual gift.

btw, I've never seen anyone interpret speaking in tongues. I've only seen everyone in a church speaking in tongues, which was for me, as Paul puts it, disorderly and not edifying.

EDIT: Baptism by the Holy Ghost is not in the Bible btw.

Look in Acts before Pentecost. Jesus tells the disciples that they will be baptised by the Holy Spirit.

[giblets]

God's way of thinking is higher that mine or yours. Why not go further and ask why the world isn't inerrant? God is the creator and you are the created. You can't tell God that what he did is an error.

The purpose of the Bible is not for you to look for errors. It's to build a relationship with God. If you seek a relationship with God you will find, by reading the Bible, that God loves you. That's what makes Christianity better than any religion.

What you see as errors doesn't mean a thing.

What a fantastic cop out. You're saying it's okay for God to disseminate false information because we can't understand him. Well, if you want to worship a liar, I guess that's your problem.

[Barnabas]

Ben, yes, everybody in Purgatory will go to heaven, they are not doomed, but they are still in a cleansing/expiation process, and the prayers help them to complete the process.
Purgatory isn't clearly defined in the new testament, obviously the word is not mentioned, the only part of the Bible I know that refers to the concept is when Paul talks about the works that will be tested by fire, and same men whose works were not excellent may still be saved, if by fire.

---

What do you all mean by God created the Bible? It didn't float down to earth in a ray of light or anything, the Church existed for centuries without the bible, and it took centuries to define which books are canonical and which ones aren't. If some late Roman Empire Pope had wanted it too, you would have ended up with the Shepherd of Hermas in the bible.

Luther didn't like the book of James because it unambiguosly denies justification by faith alone, and almost removed it from his Bible. I think he even removed it from some of his early versions.

[chequita guevara]

What Imran felt was not a God, but the sense of community in Church, which has largely disappeared from our culture. Church is one of the few places you can still get it in our crass, consumerist culture, where no one has any connections to each other than cold cash payment. TV, and now the interwebs, have really made it hard for people to have community, as we have the community, without the necessary visual cues and smiles we need.

I work hard in my socialist/anarchist study groups to create that sense of community and good feeling. A couple of weeks ago, one person told me he wanted to give the group a hug. We're hard wired to need community, since without it you die.

[Asher]

anarchist study groups

LOL