Christianity ruins families.

[Imran Siddiqui]

But that majority view appears to me to be in conflict with the Lord's Prayer. Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others... sounds kinda like a requirement. Why will God forgive us if we refuse to forgive others? And if thats the case, our "salvation" aint a sure thing. Jesus didn't die for our sins, maybe Jesus died to show us a path, albeit rather narrow. Course the Christian argument here is that real Christians will forgive others, etc ie behave Christ-like so it aint really a requirement, it'll come natural to the real Christian. And that does make sense... I guess this is the old deeds vs faith argument, if you really have the faith, the deeds will flow unimpeded. Aint many people like that, but I have met a few I think.

Answering your own question at the end . Somewhat, Protestants believe that deeds flow from faith, Catholics & Orthodox believe that salvation isn't a sure thing - that obedience to God is required even if you've accepted Jesus (therefore you have to forgive others).

[Kitschum]

According to whom? There seems to be a consensus among translations of the Bible. If it were not there, I imagine at least a few translators would not have altered the Bible in a way that makes it contradict itself.

The Greek text of John 13:31: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...3A1999.01.0155

So yeah it's there. That which Ben Kenobi quoted before is incomplete. The complete transliteration:

Hoi oun Ioudaioi, epei paraskeuê ên, hina mê meinêi epi tou staurou ta sômata en tôi sabbatôi, ên gar megalê hê hêmera ekeinou tou sabbatou, êrôtêsan ton Peilaton hina kateagôsin autôn ta skelê kai arthôsin.

I'm not sure if this helps resolve the controversy you're having and that I don't even understand...

[Kidlicious]

wow, you guys are actually having a Bible debate I wont jump into

But I will say this, I dont get the "logic" behind Christianity. God took human form and suffered a cruel fate because of our sins? First, thats a collective mentality - a small group of people did that to him. They hardly represent humanity... But if God created existence, God created sin - not us. So, Jesus didn't die for our sins, God died for creating sin and putting us in its midst.

I'm thinking of the analogy of God our Father and the seed not falling far from the tree

I swear, when you read the OT, God dont strike me as some paragon of morality. I'd say much of humanity has succeeded in surpassing Him in that dept. And that for me shoots down most religions right there...

On the other hand, if there is a creator to the universe, then we got the same problem. My head is hurting, I just figured out the God I sorta believe in is basically no different than these Gods from our ancestors.

What makes you think that you can just figure out what God is?

[Kidlicious]

frankly we wouldn't be that entertaining without free will. God dont settle for The Sims (I was watching Through the Wormhole)

But that majority view appears to me to be in conflict with the Lord's Prayer. Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others... sounds kinda like a requirement. Why will God forgive us if we refuse to forgive others? And if thats the case, our "salvation" aint a sure thing. Jesus didn't die for our sins, maybe Jesus died to show us a path, albeit rather narrow. Course the Christian argument here is that real Christians will forgive others, etc ie behave Christ-like so it aint really a requirement, it'll come natural to the real Christian. And that does make sense... I guess this is the old deeds vs faith argument, if you really have the faith, the deeds will flow unimpeded. Aint many people like that, but I have met a few I think.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Do you understand the power of that verse? The power is to save souls. That's why Jesus had to die on the cross, to make you understand that God loves you. And you will obey him because you love him back.

Free will is just a rhetorical argument to make you understand that you are guilty for your sins. It doesn't make you innocent of sin as you are claiming. It's saying that you have a choice not to sin, therefore you are guilty of sin and need forgiveness for it.

[Kidlicious]

If you murder someone, you've taken away their free will.

True. That's why your libertarian way of understanding free will is wrong. As I already said. The concept of free will is so that you will understand your guilt and feel shame.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm not sure if this helps resolve the controversy you're having and that I don't even understand...

Thanks, I just quoted the first part which was the part that we were discussing.

[Kitschum]

Thanks, I just quoted the first part which was the part that we were discussing.

Not exactly, since you cut off the key line

i.e.

ên gar = for it was
megalê hê hêmera = great day
ekeinou tou sabbatou = of that sabbath

or as KJV has it "(for that sabbath day was an high day)"

[Ben Kenobi]

ên gar megalê hê hêmera ekeinou tou sabbatou,

'for it was a great day of the sabbath,"

Ok. I concede the point. Thanks.

Still doesn't prove that the two texts contradict one another. It would make sense that the Sabbath of the passover would be a 'Great Sabbath' on the Saturday.

I don't see why Gribbler is so insistant that Christ wasn't crucified on a Friday, as John and all the synopics say that he was. All their timelines are consistant with one another.

[Asher]

This is for Ben:

[giblets]

I don't see why Gribbler is so insistant that Christ wasn't crucified on a Friday,

I'm not, you keep misrepresenting whatever I say so **** off.

[Berzerker]

That's a good question. I would say that evil came from people themselves, choosing to do what is wrong.

so why did God create us with the potential for evil and the inevitable sinfulness?

I didn't think any libertarians believed that man was intrinsically good.

Where'd I say that?

What makes you think that you can just figure out what God is?

By observing existence... Thats why I dont believe the deity depicted in the OT created the universe (aside from the fact Genesis doesn't make that claim). Whoever or whatever is responsible for existence doesn't throw tantrums over petty stuff - or worse. How do you guys explain that? I mean, c'mon! How do you read stories about God ordering slavery and genocide and conclude, "yup, there's the creator of the universe".?

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Do you understand the power of that verse?

No. But if it helps others, I dont really wanna rain on their parade. But why does someone, anyone, Jesus, have to die? Who demanded his blood? We didn't. I dont get it! God, why did you sacrifice your son? Human sacrifice aint kosher and yet I'm to believe the creator of everything engages in the practice? And to do this in the name of love? Thats perverse! Sorry, the more I think about it the more insane it sounds.

The power is to save souls. That's why Jesus had to die on the cross, to make you understand that God loves you. And you will obey him because you love him back.

Were the executioners following orders too? Why do we condemn them for following orders? Judas should be praised, right? I'm not feeling the love, can God kill more people?

Free will is just a rhetorical argument to make you understand that you are guilty for your sins. It doesn't make you innocent of sin as you are claiming. It's saying that you have a choice not to sin, therefore you are guilty of sin and need forgiveness for it.

Did God create sin? Then guilt is shared, true?

True. That's why your libertarian way of understanding free will is wrong. As I already said. The concept of free will is so that you will understand your guilt and feel shame.

Huh? I understand free will based on the definition. But you aint describing free will, thats called a conscience.

[Kidlicious]

By observing existence... Thats why I dont believe the deity depicted in the OT created the universe (aside from the fact Genesis doesn't make that claim). Whoever or whatever is responsible for existence doesn't throw tantrums over petty stuff - or worse. How do you guys explain that? I mean, c'mon! How do you read stories about God ordering slavery and genocide and conclude, "yup, there's the creator of the universe".?

By saying that you can know God by observation of existence you are implying that you are not being subjective about it, aren't you? Because your subjective imput is going to keep you from knowing the truth, no?

So who decided what petty is? You or God? Who decided who is throwing a trantrum? etc... Is that not subjective?

You see you can not know God by observation. That should be very obvious. We should all agree that God does not wish us to be able to know him that way. The Bible says that we can know God because Jesus loves us, and died a horrible death so that we could live.

No. But if it helps others, I dont really wanna rain on their parade.

What don't you understand? Don't you understand that if you believe that God loves you that you will obey him? Do children not obey their parents because their parents love them? Those who love God are his children, they obey him. The Bible says that if you do not obey his commands you are not his children, and you do not love him.

But why does someone, anyone, Jesus, have to die? Who demanded his blood? We didn't. I dont get it! God, why did you sacrifice your son? Human sacrifice aint kosher and yet I'm to believe the creator of everything engages in the practice? And to do this in the name of love? Thats perverse! Sorry, the more I think about it the more insane it sounds.

I've been explaining this to you. Jesus died on the cross so that you will understand how much God loves you, so that you will obey him, and so that you will have eternal life. If He didn't die on the cross most people would not obey, and their sacrifices to God would not please God, as Cain's sacrifices did not please Him.

Were the executioners following orders too? Why do we condemn them for following orders? Judas should be praised, right? I'm not feeling the love, can God kill more people?

No they were not following orders, but they were doing what sinners do since they did not know Jesus.

Judas was the betrayer. He was a child of the evil one. He went to hell because he wasn't a child of God, as he didn't understand the message of the Lord. God does not kill his own children, because his children have His own Spirit within them. God doesn't kill that which has himself within them.

Did God create sin? Then guilt is shared, true?

There's your subjectivity again. How can you call the Creator and judge of the universe guilty? You have a preconcieved notion of what justice is and you're putting God into it. That makes no sense. You can't do that. God is the one who says what justice is and put's you into that, not the other way around. Your arrogance is beeming through so bright that it's blinding to the eyes.

Huh? I understand free will based on the definition. But you aint describing free will, thats called a conscience.

Maybe you don't know what you are talking about. Do you know what combatablism is? You understand free will as a libertarian understands it. Others understand it differently.

Anyway, this is what I'm trying to say. God gave you a conscience. You understand that term because it's how you define your argument of Natural Law. God gives human beings a conscience so that they will feel shame. Shame allows you to understand that you are guilty, and therefore need God's forgiveness. This brings you into obedience to Christ, if you are one of God's children. If you are not one of God's children then you just continue in your shame.

[Berzerker]

By saying that you can know God by observation of existence you are implying that you are not being subjective about it, aren't you? Because your subjective imput is going to keep you from knowing the truth, no?

You claim to know God based on your reading of a book - that aint subjective?

So who decided what petty is? You or God? Who decided who is throwing a trantrum? etc... Is that not subjective?

I decided, Kid. So did you... I decided its immoral and petty to have people killed for laboring on the Sabbath. You've decided otherwise apparently...

You see you can not know God by observation. That should be very obvious. We should all agree that God does not wish us to be able to know him that way. The Bible says that we can know God because Jesus loves us, and died a horrible death so that we could live.

We should all agree? Aint that your dreaded subjectivity? And thats how I know "God" to be a petty and immoral tyrant - he sends his kid to die a horrible death and then blames us (our sin required a human sacrifice).

I've been explaining this to you. Jesus died on the cross so that you will understand how much God loves you, so that you will obey him, and so that you will have eternal life. If He didn't die on the cross most people would not obey, and their sacrifices to God would not please God, as Cain's sacrifices did not please Him.

Didn't work for most of the planet, maybe God can kill more of his children to convince the rest of us. Seriously Kid, if God wanted this lovefest he didn't have to send his kid off to commit suicide by cop. You do understand that, right?

No they were not following orders, but they were doing what sinners do since they did not know Jesus.

They were fulfilling God's plan to show how much we're loved. Without them, how will God show us love if no one kills his son?

There's your subjectivity again. How can you call the Creator and judge of the universe guilty? You have a preconcieved notion of what justice is and you're putting God into it. That makes no sense. You can't do that. God is the one who says what justice is and put's you into that, not the other way around. Your arrogance is beeming through so bright that it's blinding to the eyes.

So its subjective when I say the creator shares responsibility for the existence of sin, but it aint subjective when you say the creator doesn't share any responsibility? Damn near your entire post is subjective, Kid.

Maybe you don't know what you are talking about. Do you know what combatablism is? You understand free will as a libertarian understands it. Others understand it differently.

You confused having a conscience with free will, that much I do know...

[Kidlicious]

You claim to know God based on your reading of a book - that aint subjective?

There's a difference between subjective and subjected to. My opinions are generally subjected to God's, because I subjectively decided that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died on the cross so that I would have eternal life. Your opinions on the otherhand are merely subjected to your own stomach.

I decided, Kid.

You decided as a little child who decides his daddy is a big meany. That doesn't mean much to the rest of us.

So did you... I decided its immoral and petty to have people killed for laboring on the Sabbath. You've decided otherwise apparently...

No what I decided is that I don't know anything, but what God tells me. I've also decided that you don't know anything btw.

We should all agree? Aint that your dreaded subjectivity? And thats how I know "God" to be a petty and immoral tyrant - he sends his kid to die a horrible death and then blames us (our sin required a human sacrifice).

I was just pointing out that God doesn't make everything about his nature known to us, that we have to have faith. That is in contrast to your statement that we can simply observe the world and know God's nature.

Didn't work for most of the planet

This is a meaningless statement. Everything happens in God's own time, not our own. Who are you to say when things should happen. You're like a child crying out, "I want my cookie before dinner!"

Second, God doesn't intend for everyone to love him. Hitler was never going to love God, and that's how he was created.

, maybe God can kill more of his children to convince the rest of us. Seriously Kid, if God wanted this lovefest he didn't have to send his kid off to commit suicide by cop. You do understand that, right?

Again, God doesn't kill his children. They have eternal life.

They were fulfilling God's plan to show how much we're loved. Without them, how will God show us love if no one kills his son?

There's a difference between fullfiling God's plan and obeying God. Everyone fulfills God's plan, but only his children obey him.

So its subjective when I say the creator shares responsibility for the existence of sin, but it aint subjective when you say the creator doesn't share any responsibility? Damn near your entire post is subjective, Kid.

See above. I decided that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and that he died on the cross to save me. That much is subjective. The rest of my opinions are subjected to. You on the otherhand seem to see God as your equal. That is subjective and ridiculous.

You confused having a conscience with free will, that much I do know...

No. Both conscience and the concept of free will cause you to feel shame for your sins. They work in different ways. I didn't confuse the two.

[Kidlicious]

Another discussion point that could come up here is Mark 8:1-21. Jesus tells the disciples "Watch out for the yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod," because the disciples are worried about having enough bread even though Jesus had recently demonstrated his ability to feed them. So, the way I understand it, Jesus is saying don't observe me by the physical world, and don't put your mind on physical (natural) things. Those things He will take care of. He wants us to pay attention to spiritual things.

The Yeast of the Pharisees and that of Herod is a reference to all things not spiritual; the Law (as imposed by man), the natural law, and other social laws.