Christianity ruins families.

[BeBMan]

I loved the part where people debated the 'justification' of war and conquest in the middle ages. Let's remember that was when everyone regardless of religion bought into principles of modern intl law and enlightenend pacifism.

[Robert]

He's just trying to defend his religion.
It's as with my school when I was a teenager, when I was talking with my school-mates we all hated it, but when an outsider critisized the school I defended it. The school sucked though
It's called: loyality. It's good that people have some loyality.
But it's also good indeed to admit mistakes and wrongs, especially if they're very clear

(that counts for all of you as well :P)

[MrFun]

There are more crazy debaters here, btw.
The thing is that most of you guys agree most of the time with the guys Ben is debating with, and therefore you automaticly always consider Ben to be an idiot and his opponents to be pure sane. (little bit of black-white remark, I know )

It's just two complete different worlds that can never touch, and both worlds never even try to touch by imagining how it would be to be the other guy.

I often see where Ben's coming from, eventhough I disagree with him. (and sometimes I agree, but I would never admit that, b/c you'll all start to yell at me )
I get the idea that many of his opponents don't even see where he comes from or what his point is.

And there's of course always the thing that when someone is all by himself, he'll always start to shout louder.

Anyway, I salute Ben's bravery for continueing to stand up for his opinions in the lion's den.

You're right; I don't have sympathy or have a desire to get a feel of what it would be like, to be a bigot of any stripe. Whether the bigot is racist, homophobic, or something else.

[dannubis]

He's just trying to defend his religion.
It's as with my school when I was a teenager, when I was talking with my school-mates we all hated it, but when an outsider critisized the school I defended it. The school sucked though
It's called: loyality. It's good that people have some loyality.
But it's also good indeed to admit mistakes and wrongs, especially if they're very clear

(that counts for all of you as well :P)

WOOSH ! And again he misses the point.

Loyalty is good... lying your ass of isn't.

[Al B. Sure!]

Let's quickly review Ben's arguments... I'm being as unbiased as possible and re-stating what I believe his argument is.

All of the Middle East are Christian lands so the Crusades were justified because it was a defensive war to re-take Christian lands from the Muslims. (wow that is retarded but lets continue...)

They are Christian lands because they were Roman lands.

Yes, the Romans conquered them from the Greeks, Persians, and Israelites, those groups having conquered them from Medeans, Babylonians, Assyrians, etc. etc. in a constant cycle of conquests.

Nevertheless, those lands are truly Roman.

Romans became Christian centuries after they conquered those lands.

Since the Middle East is the homeland of Christian Romans, they have a legitimate claim over those lands and so a war by other Christians unrelated to Romans would be defensive in nature and justified.

The Israelites simultaneously have a claim to these lands.

The Israelites conquered these lands, which according to Scripture, were the homelands of a bunch of other groups. Still, though the Israelites conquered them so it's their homeland.

It is their homeland because the groups who were originally there as stated in Scripture are no longer around... no one today claims to be a Hittite or a Canaanite.

Meanwhile, the US is the homeland of the American people who liberated the Native Americans. The US didn't conquer the West, they purchased it from European powers and Mexico after the US didn't engage in a war of conquest with Mexico in the 1840's. The US only liberated the people who were there.

The Sioux, Apache, Comanche, etc. etc. all the tribes in America could not claim those lands as their homeland because... (no argument given by Ben) Note, there are people still around who claim Indian ancestry so the argument with regards to Hittites et al doesn't quite fly in this case.

Meanwhile, Christians were being oppressed by Evil Islam because they had to pay a tax which is equivalent to slavery.

Christian treatment of Muslims is irrelevant to the Evils of Islam. So is Christian treatment of Jews, heretics, and even fellow Christians.


Did I get it right, Ben? Did I miss anything?

[Robert]

You guys won't even let someone back Ben a bit up in the lion's den
You're really cruel

[rah]

If it was anybody else, maybe

[Wezil]

**** I only wish I had a lion's den I could throw Ben into.

[MrFun]

You guys won't even let someone back Ben a bit up in the lion's den
You're really cruel

What is so wrong about being intolerant of bigotry?

[Barnabas]

I am not reading all this thread, what has Ben argued for?

[C0ckney]

albert has kindly provided a summary...

[Ben Kenobi]

HOW THE **** IS PAYING A TAX WHICH EVERYONE ELSE (MUSLIMS) HAVE TO PAY ANYWAY AND BEING EXEMPT FROM MILITARY SERVICE EQUIVALENT TO SLAVERY?!?!?!

When you execute people for refusing to pay.

[Ben Kenobi]

The ancient inhabitants of the Middle East (Phoenicians, Babylonians, Canaanites, Philistines, Egyptians, etc. etc.) were never exterminated. They assimilated into the conquering populations of Persia, Greece, Rome, and finally, Arabia, whose military force only consisted of a few thousand men (desert nomads are never numerous). Your average modern Lebanese has Phoenician ancestors. Your average Iraqi has Babylonian and Assyrian ancestors. Etc. Etc.

Thus sayeth the holy prophet Albert Speer.

Arabs don't even claim to be these tribes. They claim to be children of Esau. At best they'd be Edomites, which aren't even on the list. And that's if you believe they are in fact Edomites, of which the only evidence we have is scanty.

The pre-Israelite populations had nothing in common with the Arabs, who were first in the Levant in 630.

[Ben Kenobi]

Tithing is mandatory in Islam.

wow, what a tolerant religion.

Anyway, Ben, you can say whatever you want but you are not giving an ounce of effort to defend Christian treatment of Jews, Muslims, heretics, and other nonbelievers. The Christian record is atrocious.

Compared to whom?

Muslims who killed Christians wherever they could? Who went abroad, captured Christians and enslaved them for close to a thousand years?

Muslims who still practice involuntary servitude to any unfortunate who happens to travel there for work? You do know that there are many people who are trapped in muslim countries after their employers steal their passports?

[Ben Kenobi]

Oh yeah and Ben, would you care to share with Apolyton the consequences of not paying "Peter's Pence"? Tithing was MANDATORY in Christian Europe. You would get killed if you did not pay God's due

Peter's pence was instituted after the capture of the Papal states by Italy. You don't have a clue what you are talking about Albert.