Christianity ruins families.

[giblets]

It's incredible that Ben went from criticizing the Muslims for how they treated Christians in conquered lands (relatively well) to arguing that the actions of the US in the 19th century shouldn't be judged by our standards, but rather compared to what other people did at the time.

[David Floyd]

Nice, I missed that one. Good point

[EPW]

It's incredible that Ben went from criticizing the Muslims for how they treated Christians in conquered lands (relatively well) to arguing that the actions of the US in the 19th century shouldn't be judged by our standards, but rather compared to what other people did at the time.

Another example of the Church's moral relativism:

“The death penalty was, indeed, inflicted too freely on the Albigenses, but it must be remembered that the penal code of the time was considerably more rigorous than ours.”

On the Church's crusade against the Cathars in the 13th and 14th centuries; quoted from the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01267e.htm

The Church won't hesitate to use morally relative arguments if it's to their advantage.

[Al B. Sure!]

Exodus 3:7-8

7 The LORD said, "I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering. 8 So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey—the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.

Deuteronomy 7:1-5

1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girga****es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. [a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles [b] and burn their idols in the fire.

Deuteronomy 20:10-18

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy [a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.

Now, God ordained that the land of Canaan would be the home of the Israelites but it's clear they came in as conquerors, taking the land that was the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites.

[Al B. Sure!]

Numbers 21:31-36

31 So Israel settled in the land of the Amorites.

32 After Moses had sent spies to Jazer, the Israelites captured its surrounding settlements and drove out the Amorites who were there. 33 Then they turned and went up along the road toward Bashan, and Og king of Bashan and his whole army marched out to meet them in battle at Edrei.

34 The LORD said to Moses, "Do not be afraid of him, for I have handed him over to you, with his whole army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon."

35 So they struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army, leaving them no survivors. And they took possession of his land

Joshua 12

1 These are the kings of the land whom the Israelites had defeated and whose territory they took over east of the Jordan, from the Arnon Gorge to Mount Hermon, including all the eastern side of the Arabah:
2 Sihon king of the Amorites,
who reigned in Heshbon. He ruled from Aroer on the rim of the Arnon Gorge—from the middle of the gorge—to the Jabbok River, which is the border of the Ammonites. This included half of Gilead. 3 He also ruled over the eastern Arabah from the Sea of Kinnereth [a] to the Sea of the Arabah (the Salt Sea [b] ), to Beth Jeshimoth, and then southward below the slopes of Pisgah.

4 And the territory of Og king of Bashan,
one of the last of the Rephaites, who reigned in Ashtaroth and Edrei. 5 He ruled over Mount Hermon, Salecah, all of Bashan to the border of the people of Geshur and Maacah, and half of Gilead to the border of Sihon king of Heshbon.

6 Moses, the servant of the LORD, and the Israelites conquered them. And Moses the servant of the LORD gave their land to the Reubenites, the Gadites and the half-tribe of Manasseh to be their possession.

7 These are the kings of the land that Joshua and the Israelites conquered on the west side of the Jordan, from Baal Gad in the Valley of Lebanon to Mount Halak, which rises toward Seir (their lands Joshua gave as an inheritance to the tribes of Israel according to their tribal divisions- 8 the hill country, the western foothills, the Arabah, the mountain slopes, the desert and the Negev—the lands of the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites):

9 the king of Jericho one
the king of Ai (near Bethel) one

10 the king of Jerusalem one
the king of Hebron one

11 the king of Jarmuth one
the king of Lachish one

12 the king of Eglon one
the king of Gezer one

13 the king of Debir one
the king of Geder one

14 the king of Hormah one
the king of Arad one

15 the king of Libnah one
the king of Adullam one

16 the king of Makkedah one
the king of Bethel one

17 the king of Tappuah one
the king of Hepher one

18 the king of Aphek one
the king of Lasharon one

19 the king of Madon one
the king of Hazor one

20 the king of Shimron Meron one
the king of Acshaph one

21 the king of Taanach one
the king of Megiddo one

22 the king of Kedesh one
the king of Jokneam in Carmel one

23 the king of Dor (in Naphoth Dor [c] ) one
the king of Goyim in Gilgal one

24 the king of Tirzah one
thirty-one kings in all.

[MrFun]

If BK thinks wronged groups of people can sue for damages or recovery going all the way back to beginning of time, then I guess African-Americans today can sue for compensation for their ancestors being enslaved.

[Ben Kenobi]

If BK thinks wronged groups of people can sue for damages or recovery going all the way back to beginning of time, then I guess African-Americans today can sue for compensation for their ancestors being enslaved.

Considering how it was Britain in the first place who insisted that slavery was wrong, that would really suck for the Arabs.

[Ben Kenobi]

We have a record you would find 100% credible (ie, the Old Testament of the Bible) indicating that the Israelites were a conquering people - a particularly brutal conquering people, at that.

True, but they resided in the land a thousand years before Christ. Israel is their homeland.

You both said and implied from the very beginning that the US was not a conquering or oppressive nation,

I said they never conquered territory from the native population. They bought territory from the colonial powers of France, Britain, Spain and Russia.

As to whether they were oppressive, how would you define that? Back then, they were not oppressive at all.

but rather a liberating one, towards the Native Americans. You have moved the goal posts multiple times, and backpedaled quite a bit, and now we're at the point of you arguing with me over the definition of "whitewashing".

They were a liberating nation. Do you think that the native peoples would be happier under France or Spain?

Ben, why don't you look at the last 10 posts, compare them to the first 10 posts (as they pertain to this current discussion) and I think you'll find that you are making completely different arguments.

I've been making one argument throughout. The USA never conquered any nation from the original inhabitants. You've been unable to refute this.

[Ben Kenobi]

It's incredible that Ben went from criticizing the Muslims for how they treated Christians in conquered lands (relatively well) to arguing that the actions of the US in the 19th century shouldn't be judged by our standards, but rather compared to what other people did at the time.

If by relatively well, you mean brutally oppressive, then yes.

[Ben Kenobi]

The Church won't hesitate to use morally relative arguments if it's to their advantage.

Umm, just the opposite. They are arguing that the death penalty was misused wrt to the albigenesians.

[Ben Kenobi]

Now, God ordained that the land of Canaan would be the home of the Israelites but it's clear they came in as conquerors, taking the land that was the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites.

Ok. Are there Canaanites, Hitties, Amorites, Perizzites , Hivites and Jebusites today?

[Al B. Sure!]

Ben:

Did you seriously just skip over all the Biblical verses that PROVE you WRONG?!

[Al B. Sure!]

Ok. Are there Canaanites, Hitties, Amorites, Perizzites , Hivites and Jebusites today?

They are called Arabs today, dummy.

Where are the Byzantines today? Where are the Romans?

[giblets]

If by relatively well, you mean brutally oppressive, then yes.

They allowed Christians to continue practicing their faith... as far as I know Christians wouldn't have done the same for Muslims at the time.

[Ben Kenobi]

They are called Arabs today, dummy.

This I want evidence.