Christianity ruins families.

[Ben Kenobi]

Here's what happened in most of the US, and a lot of the americas: Native Americans were living in their ancestral lands when newcomers, backed by superior military power, uprooted them, killing many of them and relocating the rest to wastelands.

Quite false.

Here's how it worked. Europeans achieve contact with Native american tribes. Smallpox rips through these native american tribes, killing around 90 percent of them. Tribes pass it on through warfare and conflict to each other.

Europeans return. Native tribes slaughter them. (Jamestown).

Europeans return again, some of the tribes support them. Successful colony founded with cooperative trade between tribes and europeans. War between colony + natives vs other natives who are enemies of the other tribe.

More europeans show up, form colonies, associate with the native tribes and trade with them.

Fast forward 200 years, and you have America form. Stuff happened in that 200 years which is very important.

If that's not conquest then conquest doesn't exist.

All I'm arguing is that the Americans didn't conquer anything. They bought the territory from others who did in fact conquer these lands.

It's sick that Ben puts so much effort into arguing semantics in order to whitewash the despicable actions done for temporal gain by people who called themselves Christians.

Ain't whitewashing anything. I've see how different tribes react towards each other up here. It's not pretty. Conflict was not just between Europeans on one side and natives on the other. Successful colonies collaborated and traded with the natives.

[Ben Kenobi]

If I settled on someone else's land, I would expect to have it challenged.

Fair enough.

I talk to tribe A, the Comanches. They say it's their land.

I talk to tribe B, the Apache. They say it's their land.

I talk to the Mexicans. They say it's their land.

Who's land is it, rah? Apache, Comanche or Mexican?

[giblets]

In the Beniverse a foreign invader who is able to take advantage of local rivalries and conflicts is "collaborating with the natives"

I guess the British were collaborating with the people of India. Brilliant.

[Garth Vader]

Fair enough.

I talk to tribe A, the Comanches. They say it's their land.

I talk to tribe B, the Apache. They say it's their land.

I talk to the Mexicans. They say it's their land.

Who's land is it, rah? Apache, Comanche or Mexican?

It sure as hell isn't mine. If I settle on that I'd expect 3 groups to be mad at me then.

[giblets]

I talk to tribe A, they say it belongs to Israel. I talk to tribe B, they say it belongs to Palestine. I guess it's time for the US to give some money to a third party who "owns" the land and slaughter everyone who lives there.

[rah]

It sure as hell isn't mine. If I settle on that I'd expect 3 groups to be mad at me then.

DING DING DING DING DING DING.

[Ben Kenobi]

I guess the British were collaborating with the people of India. Brilliant.

That was their genius. Care to dig the hole further? Muslims and Hindus trusted a British governor more than they trusted each other.

[Ben Kenobi]

It sure as hell isn't mine. If I settle on that I'd expect 3 groups to be mad at me then.

So who's is it Garth? Do you award it to the Comanches? Do you award it to the Apaches? This whole 'ancestral homeland' is bull. The reason for these conflicts between these groups is because they disagreed over precisely what constituted ancestral homeland.

Do you divide it into three pieces?

What's the answer here Garth? Who owns the land?

[Wezil]

Clearly it's the Boy Scouts that own the land.

[Ben Kenobi]

I talk to tribe A, they say it belongs to Israel. I talk to tribe B, they say it belongs to Palestine. I guess it's time for the US to give some money to a third party who "owns" the land and slaughter everyone who lives there

Different situation. We know about that land. We know who used to own the land. The same is not true for land that you've just recently discovered.

[giblets]

So who's is it Garth? Do you award it to the Comanches? Do you award it to the Apaches? This whole 'ancestral homeland' is bull. The reason for these conflicts between these groups is because they disagreed over precisely what constituted ancestral homeland.

Do you divide it into three pieces?

What's the answer here Garth? Who owns the land?

It's not yours to award or divide. It certainly isn't yours to take. The fact that there is a conflict going on somewhere in the world does not give white people the right to decide what to do the land.

[Ben Kenobi]

Bueller, Bueller?

Does anyone know who owns the land?

[Ben Kenobi]

It's not yours to award or divide. It certainly isn't yours to take. The fact that there is a conflict going on somewhere in the world does not give white people the right to decide what to do the land.

But it does give the victor the right to do whatever he wants with the land.

Might makes right?

[giblets]

But it does give the victor the right to do whatever he wants with the land.

Might makes right?

Might doesn't make right. It's wrong to invade other people's lands and take things from others. It's moot because everyone who was alive then is dead now, but it was wrong at the time.

[Ben Kenobi]

Might doesn't make right. It's wrong to invade other people's lands and take things from others. It's moot because everyone who was alive then is dead now, but it was wrong at the time.

So it was wrong for Muslims to invade Christian lands. Thank you. That's all I was after.