Apologies to BK. You were right about gay marriages.

[Ben Kenobi]

Perhaps it would help if you gave an example of an illogical law written on your heart that you adhere to.

No sex until marriage.

Preferably one that runs counter to all philosophical systems, though I realize that may be a tall order - I'll be content if the law is merely illogical. It would also be swell if the law had something to do with your interactions with others (i.e. a law that would actually be relevant to atheists, as opposed to some irrelevant copout like "believe in the one true god").

This one I believed before I was a Christian. I had a helluva a time arguing why. My first GF made a deal that I would try things out her way and see how things went.

[Riesstiu IV]

Question, who taught you that the bible was fiction?

If Ben Kenobi says it's true, then I know for sure the bible is a work of fiction.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well I'm just saying. Whoever told you it was fiction, it's been around much longer than they have. How would they know it was fiction? It's not like they can pull up St. John and have him say, "this is fiction" like they could do with Tolkein.

[giblets]

No, I'm saying they tend to have 'personal ethics', which don't apply to anyone else.

You're conflating meta-ethical relativism with atheism... and saying that people with 'personal ethics' don't have ethics, which is retarded...

[Imran Siddiqui]

Errr... Saying its been around longer is not a logical proof. Homer's Odyssey has been around longer than anyone who's been alive as well.

[loinburger]

Well I'm just saying. Whoever told you it was fiction, it's been around much longer than they have.

So you believe everything that's old?

[Riesstiu IV]

Well I'm just saying. Whoever told you it was fiction, it's been around much longer than they have. How would they know it was fiction? It's not like they can pull up St. John and have him say, "this is fiction" like they could do with Tolkein.

You are a virgin and a failure.

[Ben Kenobi]

You're conflating meta-ethical relativism with atheism... and saying that people with 'personal ethics' don't have ethics, which is retarded...

Most do. I don't know very many Objectivists in the mold of Rand.

[Ben Kenobi]

Errr... Saying its been around longer is not a logical proof. Homer's Odyssey has been around longer than anyone who's been alive as well.

And Troy was thought to be mythical until they actually were able to dig and find it.

There is archaelogical evidence for many things which are only known through the bible. For example, the Hittites were thought to be mythical until once again archaeology proved otherwise.

This is an epistemological question. How can you prove that the bible is in fact a myth? You can't for example, use the argument that you can look at a genre of writing, because the bible has many types of books, and some of the books purport to be histories, and an accurate account of what actually happened. This includes the Gospels.

So, you have the Gospels which claim to be accurate retellings. How can you prove that they are a myth?

[giblets]

Most do. I don't know very many Objectivists in the mold of Rand.

Whaaaaat? There are plenty of moral universalists who talk about "human rights" or whatever but don't have religious beliefs...

[Ben Kenobi]

Every person who espouses 'human rights' I have found to be a moral relativist, in that they really don't believe in human rights, they just think they do.

For example, do you believe that holocaust deniers should be permitted to speak?

[giblets]

Every person who espouses 'human rights' I have found to be a moral relativist, in that they really don't believe in human rights, they just think they do.

For example, do you believe that holocaust deniers should be permitted to speak?

This is garbage... if someone thinks that people have inalienable rights or whatever then they must think that some values are universal... if there's a right to life, then everyone is obligated to value human life to some extent. You can base arguments against allowing public holocaust denial, or for it, on the concept of human rights, so I don't see how that is relevant.

[Ben Kenobi]

You can base arguments against allowing public holocaust denial, or for it, on the concept of human rights, so I don't see how that is relevant.

This is contrary to the so-called 'universal' right to free speech. You've just proven exactly why 'human rights' activists aren't.

It's not just freedom of speech that can be denied because of 'human rights', but everything, including the right to life. Pretty much every single human rights activists believe in 'reproductive' rights trumping the right to life of the unborn.

All you have to do is establish a conflict either between a natural right and some made up 'human right', and away you go. You can rationalise any restriction of natural rights through 'human rights'.

[loinburger]

And Troy was thought to be mythical until they actually were able to dig and find it.

Thus proving that Zeus is non-fictional

[Ben Kenobi]

Most scholars believe that Troy is based on historical figures and events.

Myth is just history poorly recorded and lost to the passage of time.