Britain versus The Pope

[Ben Kenobi]

Religious discrimination is legal in schools, and happens very overtly as far as staff are concerned, and certainly happens as far as pupil intake goes.

1, Catholic institutions have a responsibility to educate Catholic students. That a Catholic institution puts a priority on this, should be expected. Otherwise, it's not a 'Catholic' school anymore.

There are over 2,000 RC schools in England, with most of them having some difficulty recruiting a Headteacher when the time comes, partly because of the large numbers of heads reaching retirement age

True.

generally, but mostly because a strong Catholic faith is not only a pre-requisite, but usually No 1 on the Person Spec. This reduces the field of applicants, deprives the school of leadership, and can adversely affect the education of the kids in those schools.

False, despite the challenges, the Catholic schools are preferred to the state-run schools. We would expect to see the opposite, but this is not the case. This is why there is such a high demand from non-Catholics to receive an education at schools ran by the Catholic church. Frankly, it ought to be an indictment of the public system.

However, legal discrimination in publicly-funded schools is abhorent, especially when the governing body of a school can openly state that the religious indoctrination of the pupils is the No. 1 priority.

Again, the school defrays education costs from the state. This is why I would support an exemption for all donations to the school, such that they would not be hit up by taxes. I would disagree with direct government funding, which is what we have here in certain provinces.

Presumably they will no longer be able to discriminate against gay teachers under the new law, should any wish to teach in such an institution (perhaps our polish frog-bothering friend would) but the practice will probably be covertly enforced anyway. I'm not aware of anything in the new bill that will change the situation of religious discrimination.

Actually, the law violates freedom of association. The schools would sooner cut themselves off of the funding in exchange for the free exercise of their religion.

In fact, the new academies programme, possibly to be massively expanded by an incoming Tory government, where public funding pays for privately-run schools, will see a massive increase in Christian schooling, where creationists are allowed to set their own curriculum. Diocesan bodies are scrambling in the 'gold-rush' to seize control of education, where they can implement legal religious discrimination on hiring policy, to say nothing of the content of the education.

Absent in all this, is the question is why the Tories would support Catholic schools, or is the rant only against them, and not the Anglicans?

[Cort Haus]

Not much time now Ben, but just to take the last point - both CE and RC bodies are active in the academy programme. The difference between them from a recruitment pov is that the former is usually fairly relaxed about the denomination and the strength of conviction, while the latter is very demanding in their requirements. I've seen RC heads shortlisted and even appointed to CE schools, but never the other way round.

Also, I checked, and the new law is exempt in schools, like all the religious discrimination is allowed in schools. So you can't exclude a gay cleaner in a church, but you can exclude a gay teacher in a publicly funded school. So the taxpayer is paying for this discrimination.

[Barnabas]

The British Empire spread modern civilization to barbarian peoples, built lasting infrastructure like sewers and rails, and greatly influenced the creation of the education system in former colonies. In contrast, the Catholic Church is a remnant from an ignorant and barbaric age.

What has the Catholic Church done besides interfering with non-secular matters within nations, retarding scientific progress, and spreading its vile dogmatic crap for centuries? Look at how all the former colonies inundated with Catholic culture turned out. Places like Haiti still believe in burning witches, exorcising demons, and disasters as signs from god.

The Catholic Church's tremendous influence in unsustainable third world population growth by preaching against contraception alone is worthy of utter contempt.

Destroy Catholicism.

The only first world british colonies are the ones in which they killed the locals to replace them with british colonists.
In South Africa the british issued licenses to hunt bushmen as if they were foxes, they also treated australian aborigines as a plague.

The rest of the colonies are pretty much hell holes, the only difference is that those who were civilized before the colonial age like India and Egypt fare better as nation states than the ones in which the locals were just a bunch of tribes or imported slaves.

British colonization was carthaginian like, no roman like, they only cared about extracting the natural resources, a harbour and railways.

[notyoueither]

Also, I checked, and the new law is exempt in schools, like all the religious discrimination is allowed in schools. So you can't exclude a gay cleaner in a church, but you can exclude a gay teacher in a publicly funded school. So the taxpayer is paying for this discrimination.

Jesus H.! That's ****ed up.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

And that's why we're a little irate about Pope Homophobe and his little face-off.

[notyoueither]

I'd be more irritated with the politicians.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

So you are against graven images, etc.

We don't worship the incense, y'know. It's not an idol.

Learn to read and understand, Ben. The quote explicitly draws the comparison between incense-burning and idol-worship.

He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck ; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Don't try re-writing your own religious texts just because they've bevome briefly inconvenient.

[Cort Haus]

Ben, on your other points - you seem to be under the impression that state-funding is some kind of option for them which they can drop if they're not allowed the control they seek. As if they can sell blessings and penances at the school gates as an alternative form of revenue. They can't. If they could be entirely private, they would have more autonomy, but most people can't afford private education, so they need state funding.

The joy for religionistas of *all* stripes (possibly including extreme Islam, if that helps you understand) is that a massive expansion of the academies programme would allow them to take the taxpayers' coin, but set and control their own agenda. Frankly, on libertarian grounds, I don't have a problem with private schools setting their own rules (even when I strongly disagree), but state funded education is another matter.

I don't know what you meant about the 'rant' being only against RC schools, but I can assure you that my views cover all religions and denominations. I was just observing that RC schools are far more hardline than CE.

[Ben Kenobi]

Not much time now Ben, but just to take the last point - both CE and RC bodies are active in the academy programme. The difference between them from a recruitment pov is that the former is usually fairly relaxed about the denomination and the strength of conviction, while the latter is very demanding in their requirements. I've seen RC heads shortlisted and even appointed to CE schools, but never the other way round.

Then I see no problem with the funding of Catholic schools. If they are willing to pull the funding for all the schools, not just the Catholics, then I can see it being an issue. If you are funding the CoE schools, then the Catholic ones should be funded too.

Just because the Catholic ones are run in a different fashion in that they teach the Catholic faith is not reason for a discriminatory bill targetting the Catholic church and their beliefs, while at the same time funding the CoE.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben, on your other points - you seem to be under the impression that state-funding is some kind of option for them which they can drop if they're not allowed the control they seek.

From what I can see, operation expenses are not funded by the state, the only 'support' they are given is that they are exempt from taxation. Perhaps I've misunderstood, but this is a world apart. If the only benefit they are being given is a taxation exemption, then it is definitely an option for them to withdraw from this entirely, and rely on charitable donations.

As if they can sell blessings and penances at the school gates as an alternative form of revenue. They can't. If they could be entirely private, they would have more autonomy, but most people can't afford private education, so they need state funding.

The way it works here in Canada, is that people are required to pay school taxes, on top of what they pay for private education. A voucher program would permit the schools to remain funded, so that the taxes that they do pay would go to support the program that they want to use, rather then having to pay twice, once to the state and once to the school.

This is the reason why private school is so expensive, because of the double taxation.

The joy for religionistas of *all* stripes (possibly including extreme Islam, if that helps you understand) is that a massive expansion of the academies programme would allow them to take the taxpayers' coin, but set and control their own agenda. Frankly, on libertarian grounds, I don't have a problem with private schools setting their own rules (even when I strongly disagree), but state funded education is another matter.

I'm one of those 'religionistas', and I'd prefer to be able to tick a box on my taxes saying that my children are enrolled in a private school, and that I am therefore not responsible for education taxes.

[Cort Haus]

Ben, there's no difference between RC and CE schools in terms of funding. Both are exempt from the law of the land on equality and I blame the government for allowing this.

Let it be absolutely and unequivocally clear. RC schools are *not* being 'discriminated against'. There is no need to repeat this misapprehension unless you are intending to deceive.

From what I can see, operation expenses are not funded by the state, the only 'support' they are given is that they are exempt from taxation. Perhaps I've misunderstood, but this is a world apart.

Let it be absolutely and unequivocally clear. You have misunderstood.

The tax exemption might apply to private schools which are allowed to masquerade as charities. However, we are talking about state schools. *All* expensed are paid by the taxpayer.

[Cort Haus]

The debate about private schools and vouchers is not relevant to this dicsussion, btw.

How would you feel about taxpayer funded Madrassas though?

[Ben Kenobi]

Let it be absolutely and unequivocally clear. RC schools are *not* being 'discriminated against'. There is no need to repeat this misapprehension unless you are intending to deceive.

Arguing that the Catholic schools should be defunded for their policies is religious discrimination, so long as the COE schools are fully funded.

Either both or none.

[MikeH]

Yes, we agree. All of the UK posters in this thread who don't approve of state funding of religious schools are saying none.

[Ben Kenobi]

How would you feel about taxpayer funded Madrassas though?

Same as I feel for the disciples of Henry VIII.

Persecution is no different if it comes from the King or the Caliphate. I shouldn't have to pay to support these schools, any more then they should have to pay to support mine.

I'd rather that none of them received direct government subsidies.