Britain versus The Pope

[Wezil]

Absolutely not. Tory's proposal was garbage.

It was fair but seen as the wrong direction to go.

I've already stated, I'd rather there be no funding whatsoever. I think it makes for better quality parochial schools.

That would also be fair. You surprised me today.

Now, how do we cut off the Catholic School Boards in this province? There's a lot of them and no easy route to take.

[Ben Kenobi]

So you concede there is no publicly funded Protestant school board (with the glaring exception of the 253 student school in Penetanguishene)?

With the caveat, yes.

I looked for the reason for the exception but couldn't find it. I assure you it would not be the only jurisdiction that was "majority Catholic". There would be a long list of such places in Ontario.

Well I was rather surprised to see it on the Georgian Bay.

Now, how do we cut off the Catholic School Boards in this province? There's a lot of them and no easy route to take.

I can only see the constitutional option, as this is no small task and goes back to 1867. Tory's case for expansion is a non-starter, and makes the problem much worse.

[BlackCat]

Now, how do we cut off the Catholic School Boards in this province? There's a lot of them and no easy route to take.

Pay the estimated land/building value of the schools, set in new boards and make all positions open - most teachers and staff will probably be rehired.

[Wezil]

I can only see the constitutional option, as this is no small task and goes back to 1867.

Unfortunately that is probably the only option - meaning it can't/won't be done.

Tory's case for expansion is a non-starter, and makes the problem much worse.

I agree it will make the problem worse (a more fractured system) but for the reason above I suspect we will eventually go this way. Conservatives generally get burned on this issue by advancing the unpopular policy that the other parties eventually adopt.

[Wezil]

Pay the estimated land/building value of the schools, set in new boards and make all positions open - most teachers and staff will probably be rehired.

Why pay for schools that public monies have built?

As to staff/teachers - Yeah probably, the same number of students will still need educating.

[BlackCat]

Well, I assumed there was some public/private financing of it, so to appease minds the payment, but if that isn't the case, then just so much easier.

[Wezil]

It's actually a more complicated issue than I care to get into BC. Until recently the two school boards in this province (public and "Separate" ie Catholic) were funded through local property taxes. Catholic tax payers would indicate such on their return and their school tax portion would go to the Separate Board. People such as Ben will argue they've paid their own way but minimize the fact these taxes did not help to support the public board. Tax payers with children in truly "private" schools were not granted the same tax opt out.

[BlackCat]

You canucks are crazy

Well, what then saying that these schools only get what supporting taxpayers will give ? TBH I guess that they get heavy funding from non catholic taxpayers.

[Ben Kenobi]

I agree it will make the problem worse (a more fractured system) but for the reason above I suspect we will eventually go this way. Conservatives generally get burned on this issue by advancing the unpopular policy that the other parties eventually adopt.

If people wanted the unpopular progressive position, they'd vote NDP. The people want Conservatives to either stand up for the traditions or to advocate decreasing the size of the state. This is why Tory is no longer leader of the conservative party.

Fiscally, I can't see this happening. This makes for a significant expansion to an already strapped ministry, and greatly opens the door to fraud. They are already having great difficultly keeping cost containment, which is why you guys lost your grade 13. Expanding mandate, simply means less funding for everyone meaning that no one is satisfied.

[Wezil]

You canucks are crazy

Yeah, Ontario isn't the only province with a messed up school system.

Well, what then saying that these schools only get what supporting taxpayers will give ? TBH I guess that they get heavy funding from non catholic taxpayers.

Although a sizable minority the Separate Boards get additional support.

The city I grew up in had many Catholic elementary schools (grades 1-8) and 1 Catholic High School (Grades 9-13 in those days, 12 now). There were 5 public high schools.

[BlackCat]

I'm a bit puzzeld by this :

and greatly opens the door to fraud.

could you please enlighten me ?

[Ben Kenobi]

People such as Ben will argue they've paid their own way but minimize the fact these taxes did not help to support the public board.

Couple things here.

1. I don't see how it's fair to have double taxation on private schools. Everyone pays their way, except some people pay twice.

2. I'd rather see the exemption based on a per pupil amount, ie, if you have a kid, regardless of whether you send the kid to public or private school, you only pay once.

3. The issue of the public funding for Catholic schools is a whole different ball of wax. I'd like to see removing all of their public funding and then removing the double taxation. This way the school is entirely supported through the charity of the parents and the community. Ie, making the Catholic schools truly private, and providing the exact same benefit to all the schools.

[Wezil]

If people wanted the unpopular progressive position, they'd vote NDP. The people want Conservatives to either stand up for the traditions or to advocate decreasing the size of the state. This is why Tory is no longer leader of the conservative party.

I'm not a Conservative so I'll leave you guys to argue that amongst yourselves.

Fiscally, I can't see this happening. This makes for a significant expansion to an already strapped ministry, and greatly opens the door to fraud. They are already having great difficultly keeping cost containment, which is why you guys lost your grade 13. Expanding mandate, simply means less funding for everyone meaning that no one is satisfied.

You have it backwards. Fiscally a single board would be more efficient. There is considerable duplication of services now. A public school I attended literally backed on to the grounds of a Separate School. We both had our own libraries, sports fields (and equipment) and playgrounds. In a cost saving measure they did use our gymnasium rather than add on on to their own building.

As to Grade 13 - No, it was eliminated because it was an anachronism and unnecessary. Spending money is not something our governments have problems with.

[Wezil]

Couple things here.

1. I don't see how it's fair to have double taxation on private schools. Everyone pays their way, except some people pay twice.

No, it is single taxation. Once they pay their public school tax like every other member of the public in this province they are free to do what they want with their money. If they choose to spend it sending their child to a private religious school (be it Jew, Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, or whatever) then they are perfectly free to do so.

2. I'd rather see the exemption based on a per pupil amount, ie, if you have a kid, regardless of whether you send the kid to public or private school, you only pay once.

Agreed, you pay your tax to support the public system only once per year.

3. The issue of the public funding for Catholic schools is a whole different ball of wax. I'd like to see removing all of their public funding and then removing the double taxation. This way the school is entirely supported through the charity of the parents and the community. Ie, making the Catholic schools truly private, and providing the exact same benefit to all the schools.

I think this is the same point the third time. There is no "double taxation". If a Canadian chooses to have all their health care looked after in the US should they be exempt from paying any health taxes here?

[Ben Kenobi]

You have it backwards. Fiscally a single board would be more efficient.

Yes, and no. Economies of scale favours a single board, but in terms of cost control, local control would be superior. If people pay the true cost of education, then they are better able to keep costs down, and at the same time, find better ways to educate students.

Over here, my district has seen around 14 schools close, more than half of the provincial total. The reason being that the overall system is running into problems with margins. By closing the more expensive per student schools, they can keep the costs controlled over the whole. The problem with this is this means that local communities have no education facilities at all.

I don't feel this is an acceptable option. I think too often the local schools are treated as a publicly funded community centre, especially in rural areas. What would happen if they didn't have the building maintenance and administrative costs associated with the schools? Is it really necessary to have a whole building for 50 kids, or are there better ways to acheive the same results?

From what I can see, the system is going to move to decentralisation, provisions of teaching materials, and curricular materials via the internet. Holding more classes online, moderated by a teacher who would receive and submit assignments, etc.

I've participated in distance education, and I cannot say that it was inferior to my other classes.