How "Christian" of him!!

[Ben Kenobi]

[action=Ben Kenobi]chuckles at the thought of Mobius as a 'me too'.[/action]

[Boris Godunov]

I come back from 2 weeks of vacation and see this thread has gone about as I expected as of page 5 (BK liefest). Boring after that.

[Kidlicious]

Christians have an obligation to serve others, and I don't see why that would bar them from running for office.

"It is better to be the servent than the master."

Yes, you stick with your principles, and yes this might cause you to lose, but there is nothing contrary to scripture with running for office.

I've been quoting scripture that does just that.

Would it be prefereable to have a government of non-believers? Hardly. Look at the founding fathers. They were very clear that they were believers in Christ and they believed they had an obligation to govern in the name of the people.

Governing in the name of the people is not governing in the name of God.

Excluding Christians from office is no different than bigotry and discrimination.

I'm not excluding them at all.

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I would like to say more about The Sermon on the Mount.

The Sermon on the Mount is like the Declaration of Independence. It's like a decree of divorce. It divorces Christianity from Judaism completely and fully just like you divorce a wife or a husband.

I don't think you have an ex-wife, but I do, and I think others here do. If you issue a divorce to your wife, and you be a Christian, you should make a complete and total break from her. It should be as if you never knew her. For if she had some redeming qualities you should never have divorced her. In my case, my ex gave back seeking my sympathy and so forth, and I reluctantly granted it to her. That was a mistake. Don't throw what is holy to dogs and don't throw your pearls to pigs, or you will pay.

So Christianity is divorced from Judaism.

[Ben Kenobi]

"It is better to be the servent than the master."

Which is why it's called a public servant!

Governing in the name of the people is not governing in the name of God.

So you don't consider the Founders to be worthy men worthy of emulation?

I don't think you have an ex-wife, but I do, and I think others here do. If you issue a divorce to your wife, and you be a Christian, you should make a complete and total break from her.

Christ says, "what God has brought together let man not separate. He also says to remain as you are. If you are married, stay married, if you are divorced, stay divorce. Divorce is not part of God's plan. I would argue depending on your situation that he would call for reconciliation. He would never, never ask you to divorce your wife after becoming a Christian. Whoever told you this has got it seriously wrong!

For if she had some redeming qualities you should never have divorced her.

Wow, that's a load of horsecrap.

In my case, my ex gave back seeking my sympathy and so forth, and I reluctantly granted it to her.

You did right in seeking reconciliation regardless of whether you failed or succeeded.

[Imran Siddiqui]

He would never, never ask you to divorce your wife after becoming a Christian.

Uh... in Matthew 31, the Sermon on the Mount, he explicitly says divorce makes the wife an adulteress EXCEPT for martial unfaithfulness.

[Ben Kenobi]

Sermon on the Mount, he explicitly says divorce makes the wife an adulteress EXCEPT for martial unfaithfulness.

I'm referring to this: 1 Cor 7:12-7

To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him.

[Nikolai]

I don't think you have an ex-wife, but I do, and I think others here do. If you issue a divorce to your wife, and you be a Christian, you should make a complete and total break from her. It should be as if you never knew her. For if she had some redeming qualities you should never have divorced her. In my case, my ex gave back seeking my sympathy and so forth, and I reluctantly granted it to her. That was a mistake. Don't throw what is holy to dogs and don't throw your pearls to pigs, or you will pay.

This probably sounds good if you don't add children into the mix. Anyway, it's not much of a Christian spirit.

[Berzerker]

You forget that he denied being king of anything. People, up to and including Pilate, are the ones that called him so.

He denied being the messiah? That word means king of the Jews I believe and he made a point of being a descendant of David, a kingly requirement.

And that's exactly what happened. Christ wants earthly peace but not at the cost of compromising his Word. His word comes first.

As for Kingship, he explicitly says to Pilate, "my Kingdom is not of this earth". You can spin it however you want, Christ's kingdom isn't a democracy. He claims authority over everyone.

I said it was a monarchic relationship, but he wasn't telling his followers to seek or partake in strife, he merely warned them it was coming. You dont need to be a rocket scientist or prophet to make that prediction... The old guard - the conservatives - will attack the new interpretation of religion, and they did, they had Jesus executed.

His intention, as Ben mentioned, is to make christianity sweep over the world, and defeat every other religion and ideology. He say's "I am the way." In that light conflict itself is Jesus (at least in part).

"Defeat"? We have the choice to join or not. He is not the way, his teachings are the way... I dont see much ideology in his teachings, just a message about personal conduct. And whenever his followers were about to get into a conflict, he intervened - he is not conflict itself. You're confusing his prediction about how his followers would be persecuted for his intent, it was not his intent that his followers be persecuted - just a sad reality. And he tried to keep them out of trouble, render unto Caesar, the weak stance on slavery, and staying away from the message of militant Jews bent on rebellion.

Only earthly, or mortal kings, are imperialists. Jesus is perfect, and therefore capable of ruling without resorting to sin.

Pray like this, "Thy kingdom come, on earth, as it is in heaven."

Whats his kingdom like in Heaven? Is he the king? If earthly kingship is flawed, why in the hell is he using it as an example of what he and his realm are like? Ruling is a sin...

[Kidlicious]

Which is why it's called a public servant!

I don't care what they call themselves. I care what God calls it.

So you don't consider the Founders to be worthy men worthy of emulation?

All the Founding Fathers? Of course not. Probably not most of them. They claimed to be doing good, but what were their motives?

That said, I support a government that follows Christian principles to the extent that they do so.

Christ says, "what God has brought together let man not separate. He also says to remain as you are. If you are married, stay married, if you are divorced, stay divorce. Divorce is not part of God's plan. I would argue depending on your situation that he would call for reconciliation. He would never, never ask you to divorce your wife after becoming a Christian. Whoever told you this has got it seriously wrong!

Prove it! Where are the scriptures? Speak from authority.

btw, It was not a Christian wedding.

[Kidlicious]

This probably sounds good if you don't add children into the mix. Anyway, it's not much of a Christian spirit.

It can't be helped if there are children. I just act as a good Christian. That does not include being someone's fool.

[Kidlicious]

I'm referring to this: 1 Cor 7:12-7

What Christ is saying on the Mount is you don't have to stay married to someone who's heart is filled with darkness. When you do divorce them it's because they are evil. So don't ever trust them again.

[Kidlicious]

"Defeat"? We have the choice to join or not. He is not the way, his teachings are the way... I dont see much ideology in his teachings, just a message about personal conduct. And whenever his followers were about to get into a conflict, he intervened - he is not conflict itself. You're confusing his prediction about how his followers would be persecuted for his intent, it was not his intent that his followers be persecuted - just a sad reality. And he tried to keep them out of trouble, render unto Caesar, the weak stance on slavery, and staying away from the message of militant Jews bent on rebellion.

How do you know it's not God's intent for Christians to be persecuted? It's an honor.

[Kidlicious]

Whats his kingdom like in Heaven? Is he the king? If earthly kingship is flawed, why in the hell is he using it as an example of what he and his realm are like? Ruling is a sin...

There are many mansions in Heaven. There is no more sickness, etc... You know all this, don't you? If you don't read the Bible.

[Ben Kenobi]

What Christ is saying on the Mount is you don't have to stay married to someone who's heart is filled with darkness. When you do divorce them it's because they are evil. So don't ever trust them again.

Just the opposite. A believer is NOT to divorce an unbeliever. If she chooses to leave, you have to let her go. I don't know how I can be anymore clearer.

[Ben Kenobi]

I just act as a good Christian. That does not include being someone's fool.

Better to be a fool in Christ then worldly wise.