How "Christian" of him!!

[Ben Kenobi]

Even if it God let the Romans occupy Israel and tax them, that doesn't absolve the Roman's of their sin.

Does Christ say that it is sinful for them to collect taxes? No, he explicitly says just the opposite that Roman coinage should be returned to Rome.

If you steal my car God let it happen, but you still sin bud.

Very true. Does Christ consider the Romans to be theives for collecting taxes?

Look, it's this simple, and I'm not saying that you don't walk in the way of Christ, but remember that when you don't walk in the way of Christ you sin. Satan tempted Jesus and offered to make him King of the biggest empire ever to exist on earth. Jesus chose his own way.

Yes, for he said "My Kingdom is not of this Earth," not because kingdoms are in and of themselves sinful.

[Kidlicious]

BTW, I never said Constantine was evil.

He likened himself to King David. He likened a Roman military officer to Jesus. The Christians that he purged just happen to be those who didn't believe in the Old Testament. He murdered many including members of his own family.

[Kidlicious]

Does Christ say that it is sinful for them to collect taxes? No, he explicitly says just the opposite that Roman coinage should be returned to Rome.

That's not true. He say's return it because it's got Caesar's picture on it. Don't you get it?

Very true. Does Christ consider the Romans to be theives for collecting taxes?

The Roman's where thieves and murderers and state terrorists. Christ spoke the truth.

Yes, for he said "My Kingdom is not of this Earth," not because kingdoms are in and of themselves sinful.

I didn't say kingdoms were sinfull. I say being an imperialist is.

[Kidlicious]

Who said this? Eusebius? No, the bishops decided that Arianism was heretical and anathema to the Church. The bishops, not Constantine.

The bishop's and Constantine had a symbiotic relationship. It figure's that this would be beyond your grasp.

[Imran Siddiqui]

3 and a half years after the Theses were nailed on Wittenburg. He wasn't excommunicated until 1521, and excommunication wasn't even under discussion until 6 months prior to the formal excommunication.

Still doesn't mean he left

[Ben Kenobi]

Still doesn't mean he left

Calling the Pope the antichrist and the Church as the whore of babylon and you say he didn't leave?

The pope still sent legates to him for years. He even burnt the Papal bull requesting an audience with him.

[Ben Kenobi]

He likened himself to King David. He likened a Roman military officer to Jesus. The Christians that he purged just happen to be those who didn't believe in the Old Testament. He murdered many including members of his own family.

And he was a convert. How is this any different from the least of the Apostles?

That's not true. He say's return it because it's got Caesar's picture on it. Don't you get it?

Hence the allusion to Roman coinage.

The Roman's where thieves and murderers and state terrorists. Christ spoke the truth.

And so is man. All have sinned.

I didn't say kingdoms were sinfull. I say being an imperialist is.

Really? Why then did Christ say that the earth was his footstool.

Christ is like the ultimate imperialist. He wants to rule over all the earth and his kingdom will have no end.

[Ben Kenobi]

The bishop's and Constantine had a symbiotic relationship. It figure's that this would be beyond your grasp.

Symbiotic by definition means beneficial, which is precisely my argument. The relationship between the bishops and Constantine was a symbiotic relationship.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Calling the Pope the antichrist and the Church as the whore of babylon and you say he didn't leave?

The pope still sent legates to him for years. He even burnt the Papal bull requesting an audience with him.

Luther did go to the Imperial Diet at Augsburg, which the Pope allowed to try him. And the Pope instructed his legate to arrest Luther, but he had protection from the Elector of Saxony.

[Ben Kenobi]

Luther did go to the Imperial Diet at Augsburg, which the Pope allowed to try him. And the Pope instructed his legate to arrest Luther, but he had protection from the Elector of Saxony.

He did no such thing. The only one who claims there was an attempt to arrest him was Luther.

[Nikolai]

Good fruits? I beg to differ. We should be thankful just for the Edict of Toleration. He was one of the good emperors, in a time when good ones were unusual.

I've already stated my reasons. And I uphold my opinion that much bad for the future of the Church was from the emerging caesaropapism he championed.

I'm asking because a, these movements tended to be ran by Popes (see Gregory the Great, or Leo).


Such as when Benedict set up his rule? Or when Augustine did his? I'm with you here on this, I'm also curious if you can name them and the people involved.

Of course, some were headed by popes. Which I think I mentioned in my previous post. But many were not. You already mentioned Augustin and Benedict. Benedict were not alone though, only the head figure. Much reform is made by people being led by the Holy Spirit back to the simpler Christian life, and He use both well known people like Benedict, but more importantly he does it through the movement itself, correcting its wrongs(because all reform movements risk going too far) through several people. Therefore I don't like to focus on specific people, and rather on the movements. I could dig up something I guess, if you want. But my point is really as said above.

I think the most far-ranging and significant was St. Francis in the Counter-Reformation. He proved that it was unnecessary to split in order to 'reform'. I found his arguments rather provocative in that he accepted Luther's challenges and in return asked him if it was about himself or what was best for the congregation.

In the light of what St. Francis accomplished I find it difficult to side with Luther and Calvin who argued that the Catholic system was irredeemably corrupt and could not be fixed from within.

I don't know this St. Francis well(I take it it's not the Francis of Assissi, since you mention the Counter-Reformation), but as for myself, my main problem with the Catholic version of Christianity, is that I don't find biblical support for the title of pope. I see no reason why Peter's primate should automagically transfer to other people, who might or might not be of his casting. But, in the end, I don't think such trivialities matter much. What matter is how we relate to Christ.

[Ben Kenobi]

as for myself, my main problem with the Catholic version of Christianity, is that I don't find biblical support for the title of pope. I see no reason why Peter's primate should automagically transfer to other people, who might or might not be of his casting. But, in the end, I don't think such trivialities matter much. What matter is how we relate to Christ.

Well, this is hardly a triviality. It's a very important question!

First off, it is St. Francis of Assisi. Pope Innocent had a dream of St. Francis holding up the church.

http://www.wga.hu/support/viewer/z.html

The reform movement in Catholicism in the medieval period originated with St. Francis and Pope Innocent III, and the founding of the Franciscan Order long before any Lutheran was known. In the time of Luther, St. Ignatius was the most prominent proponent of reform, along with his Jesuit order.

Two points in your question:

"biblical support for the title of Pope"

and

"transference from St. Peter"

The institution of the Papacy under Peter is recorded in Scripture in Matthew 16:19, where Christ gives Peter the power to bind and loose, and supreme power in church governance.

Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Several things to be noted. "I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven", and that the Church that he is building will prevail over all. The office is permanent, and will not cease with Peter.

The use of the word "Pope" has not always been the case. In the Latin it was and is Pontifex Maximus. Pope is a more informal phrase that came to be used around the time of Theodosius, and was acclaimed by Pope Gregory VII.

With respect to the second point, apostolic succession. What does Christ mean when he states, I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven? We go to Isaiah 22:20-25

"In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. I will drive him like a peg into a firm place; he will be a seat of honor for the house of his father. All the glory of his family will hang on him: its offspring and offshoots—all its lesser vessels, from the bowls to all the jars.

"In that day," declares the LORD Almighty, "the peg driven into the firm place will give way; it will be sheared off and will fall, and the load hanging on it will be cut down." The LORD has spoken.

It is very clear that the office is hereditary. "All the glory of his family will hang onto him, it's offspring and offshoots". The act of passing the keys to Peter implies that there will be a succession, the authority is not limited to him.

[Imran Siddiqui]

He did no such thing. The only one who claims there was an attempt to arrest him was Luther.

Yes he did. Cardinal Cajetan was ordered to arrest Luther if he did not recant, but the Elector of Saxony was a friend and protected Luther.

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes he did. Cardinal Cajetan was ordered to arrest Luther if he did not recant, but the Elector of Saxony was a friend and protected Luther.

The papers sent to Cardinal Cajetan by the Vatican did not give orders to arrest Luther. They still have them and they don't bear out Luther's account.

[Dinner]

Have we decided there is no god yet? Having to endure Ben's posts should be proof positive.