How "Christian" of him!!

[Boris Godunov]

A wicked generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given except the sign of Jonah. Sodom's warning were the angels that they tried to sodomise.

So...they'll get eaten by a whale? Now that's a helpful answer.

How were the angels a warning? There's nothing saying anyone but Lot knew they were angels. They don't tell anyone that they were going to destroy the city because of their wicked ways except Lot, who they aren't planning to kill anyway (not sure why, since he doesn't prove to be too nice a guy himself). Lot doesn't warn anyone esle. The only "miracle" they perform is blinding the men outside the door, but at that point they already had decided to destroy the place, so it can't be a warning.

Because prophets aren't maybe this or maybe that. They are explicit and they testify before the event.

This is contradictory to what you said above! Where was the prophet telling the people of Sodom and Gomorrah of the impending slaughter?

Not my question. Do you believe that they were divine punishments.

I don't see how what I said didn't answer this question. Are you kidding me?

Unless you're asking if I personally believe they were divine punishments, which would be a ****ing retarded thing to ask me.

Sin of Adam. No, I don't believe there are babies in heaven, but that does not mean they are sinless.

No babies in Heaven? Now that's odd.

But since you don't think the "Sin of Adam" warrants damnation for babies, then there's no logical reason to say that babies are deserving of punishments that are being meted out by god on the wicked. Nowhere in the Bible is God shown to zap people on earth solely because they had the "Sin of Adam." So there can't be any justice in slaughtering babies along with actual wicked people, especially since an omnipotent god would presumably have the ability to target exactly who he wanted to punish.

To free his people Israel. After sending 7 different plagues over Egypt. Finally Pharoah agreed to free the Israelites from slavery.

And this changes my point how, exactly? Slaughtering children to free others from slavery is still slaughtering children. Children who didn't have anything to do with the slavery. Are you suggesting an "ends justifies the means" morality here?

And keep in mind that Pharoah might have agreed sooner if God hadn't "hardened his heart" against the Moses. That's a genuine Catch-22 if I ever saw one.

[Kidlicious]

His covenant, is with his people, who are Israel, regardless if they practice Judaism.

I agree that the promises of the covenant are only available to those who worship Christ, but that does not mean that Jews who do not worship him stop being his people. Gentiles have been 'added on' so to speak.

That's an incredible belief. I doubt if many Jews feel the same about you. I don't see why they should reading the OT. In fact, they not only don't believe that Jesus was even a prophet of God (as the Muslims do), but they are waiting for the 'true' messiah.

So if a homosexual believes in Jesus and devotes his life to him, you believe that he or she will not go to Heaven, but a religious Jew will?

That's just stupid.

[BlackCat]

That's just stupid.

Just out of curiosity - why do you expect logic asking a religious person ?

[Kidlicious]

No babies in Heaven? Now that's odd.

Yeah, especially since he believes that the followers of the religion that's responsible for crucifying Jesus can go to Heaven.

But since you don't think the "Sin of Adam" warrants damnation for babies, then there's no logical reason to say that babies are deserving of punishments that are being meted out by god on the wicked. Nowhere in the Bible is God shown to zap people on earth solely because they had the "Sin of Adam." So there can't be any justice in slaughtering babies along with actual wicked people, especially since an omnipotent god would presumably have the ability to target exactly who he wanted to punish.

The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. When the Lord taketh away it is not injustice.

[Kidlicious]

Just out of curiosity - why do you expect logic asking a religious person ?

"I send you out as sheep among wolves. Therefore be as wise as serpents..."

[Kidlicious]

Jesus negates the OT because he is the way, his teachings... Maybe someone else is in charge of heaven now Jesus was not enamored with everything done in the OT, look at how he challenged Mosaic divorce law and the Sabbath. I certainly dont let the OT taint Jesus by thinking he's guilty because of what God allegedly did.

Negate is not the proper word I think. He clarifies it. Also, the OT is better seen as history with lessons to be learned. God wished there to be a history on earth before the first coming of Jesus.

edit: God holds mysteries and only reveals them gradually. That is his way. It is written.

[Nikolai]

That's an incredible belief. I doubt if many Jews feel the same about you. I don't see why they should reading the OT. In fact, they not only don't believe that Jesus was even a prophet of God (as the Muslims do), but they are waiting for the 'true' messiah.

So if a homosexual believes in Jesus and devotes his life to him, you believe that he or she will not go to Heaven, but a religious Jew will?

That's just stupid.

A homosexual who devotes his life to Jesus and believes in Him will of course come to Heaven. He has his homosexuality to deal with, but we all have our own things to deal with. I don't think God punishes being wrong in theological matters(which I think a liberal Christian who accepts homosexuality fully is, but I'm 100% sure I'm wrong in other departments myself, which of course I don't know), he loves the person in question whatever his sexual orientation. I believe God sees to the heart: Is A a believer in Jesus as God? Check. Does he have faulty theology, but doesn't know/understand? If check, Heaven.

A Jew who accepts Jesus as God, ie a Messianic Jew, is of course saved. If he doesn't, he's not.

I believe it's that easy.

[Kidlicious]

By religious Jew I meant a follower of Judaism. Of course a Christian Jew will go to Heaven.

[Ben Kenobi]

So...they'll get eaten by a whale? Now that's a helpful answer.

But the LORD provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was inside the fish three days and three nights.

This was the sign of Jonah.

How were the angels a warning? There's nothing saying anyone but Lot knew they were angels.

The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."

"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."

Clearly Lot took them to be Angels. Why did they want to spend the night out in the square? To warn Sodom of impending judgment.

They don't tell anyone that they were going to destroy the city because of their wicked ways except Lot, who they aren't planning to kill anyway (not sure why, since he doesn't prove to be too nice a guy himself). Lot doesn't warn anyone esle. The only "miracle" they perform is blinding the men outside the door, but at that point they already had decided to destroy the place, so it can't be a warning.

They don't decide to destroy the place until after they try to break down Lot's door.

This is contradictory to what you said above! Where was the prophet telling the people of Sodom and Gomorrah of the impending slaughter?

The two angels were sent by God to warn Sodom.

Unless you're asking if I personally believe they were divine punishments, which would be a ****ing retarded thing to ask me.

That's exactly why I'm asking you. Do you personally believe they were divine punishments?

No babies in Heaven? Now that's odd.

Sigh, miswrote that. I meant to say there ARE babies in heaven. My bad here.

And keep in mind that Pharoah might have agreed sooner if God hadn't "hardened his heart" against the Moses. That's a genuine Catch-22 if I ever saw one.

Oh, so keeping an entire nation in slavery and resisting their calls for freedom isn't grounds for divine punishment?

[Ben Kenobi]

A homosexual who devotes his life to Jesus and believes in Him will of course come to Heaven.

Only if he repents.

[Ben Kenobi]

That's an incredible belief. I doubt if many Jews feel the same about you.

Why should they? We are the dogs whom Christ saw fit to make a spot for us at the table.

So if a homosexual believes in Jesus and devotes his life to him, you believe that he or she will not go to Heaven, but a religious Jew will?

I believe anyone who sincerely repents of their sins and turns to Christ will be saved. A religious Jew who doesn't turn to Christ has rejected him, and a homosexual who does not repent will deny him as well.

[Imran Siddiqui]

That's exactly why I'm asking you. Do you personally believe they were divine punishments?

Do you realize the utter ridiculousness of asking an atheist if something is "divine punishment"?

Oh, so keeping an entire nation in slavery and resisting their calls for freedom isn't grounds for divine punishment?

Boris' point there is that the Lord hardened Pharoah's heart on a number of occasions to prevent him from letting the Hebrews go. The Lord wanted to do so in order to demonstrate to the people of Egypt of His power and so future Jews will know his power as the story is retold (Exodus 10:1-2). Basically some of the divine punishment was put in place for God to demonstrate his power rather than simply to free the Hebrews from bondage.

[Ben Kenobi]

Do you realize the utter ridiculousness of asking an atheist if something is "divine punishment"?

Do you realise the irony of an atheist arguing that natural disasters are divine punishment?

Boris' point there is that the Lord hardened Pharoah's heart on a number of occasions to prevent him from letting the Hebrews go. The Lord wanted to do so in order to demonstrate to the people of Egypt of His power and so future Jews will know his power as the story is retold (Exodus 10:1-2). Basically some of the divine punishment was put in place for God to demonstrate his power rather than simply to free the Hebrews from bondage.

Fair enough, but lets not forget that Pharaoh had many, many opportunities to free Israel.

[Dr Strangelove]

I heard a radio interview with Sir David Attenborough the other day, and it touched on religion/evolution. He pointed out seeing children in Africa with parasitic worms eating their eyeballs from the inside. That's the only way the worms can survive, by eating eyeballs- it's the only option open to them.

If you accept the notion of creation, the God that created the children is the same God that created the eyeball-eating worms. And that's something Sir David struggles to balance with the notion of a benevolent deity. Can't say I blame him.

I don't think there is a worm that only lives in eyeballs, it's a parasite that prefers to live elsewhere but sometimes gets in the wrong host and goes to the wrong tissue. An example is [I]Wuchereria bancrofti[I], the worm that causes elephantiasis in humans. Its normal host is something else, but in humans it gets lost and winds up in the lymphatic system, blocking lymph drainage. In this condition it can't replicate, so it dies.
If you want a world without bacteria or worms then you're essentially asking for the end of life on Earth. If the carbon in dead animals and plants doesn't get recycled then verything dies.
There's some recent evidence that viruses may have evolved from an ancient mechanism for genetic exchange among micro-organisms. There's a mega virus that has genetic remnants of DNA from bacteria, protozoa, algae and fungi. Now that's freaky sex.

[DaShi]

If you want a world without bacteria or worms then you're essentially asking for the end of life on Earth. If the carbon in dead animals and plants doesn't get recycled then verything dies.

Acceptable losses.