Abortion Doctor Gunned Down at Church

[Ben Kenobi]

Typical... you keep trying to change the subject. This isn't about slavery.

True. Slavery didn't kill 40 million Americans.

The point is that just because people are divided on the issue doesn't mean that the status quo is right.

Lincoln argued that it was wrong to keep people in slavery because they were people, even if it meant a civil war over that preposition.

[Ming]

If you restrict abortion to 22 weeks (or whatever time around that period) I have no problem with it unless their is a danger to the mother. She comes first!

And if that's the case, we aren't killing "tens of thousands" of innocent children...
One can argue (and will) when it becomes a "child"... but early on, the "creature" is less aware than the average animal that we kill and eat daily.

[Ming]

True. Slavery didn't kill 40 million Americans.
Lincoln argued that it was wrong to keep people in slavery because they were people, even if it meant a civil war over that preposition.

This isn't about slavery, so frankly, I don't give a damn what Lincoln had to say about it. While I can agree that slavery is wrong, it has nothing to do with this issue.

[DinoDoc]

There are actually a large number of various disorders and deformities that may not be detected until late in the pregnancy.

Are these common (relatively speaking of course) occurances? This poll at least seems to point toward medical necessity being among the least common reasons women gave for having a later abortion.

[Patroklos]

If you restrict abortion to 22 weeks (or whatever time around that period) I have no problem with it unless their is a danger to the mother. She comes first!

Why? Again, if we restict abortion to 22 weeks because of the risk of destroying human life, why is one human life now less valuable than another?

And if that's the case, we aren't killing "tens of thousands" of innocent children...
One can argue (and will) when it becomes a "child"... but early on, the "creature" is less aware than the average animal that we kill and eat daily.

Again, you are not applying standards consistantly. It is either a human or it is not. If it is it has all the rights that carries in all other cases, if it is not then it has no rights at all.

Consistancy is a virtue.

[Lorizael]

True. Slavery didn't kill 40 million Americans.

Abortion hasn't killed a single American. You either have to be born in this country or have passed a citizenship test and been naturalized to be an American.

[DinoDoc]

One can argue (and will) when it becomes a "child"... but early on, the "creature" is less aware than the average animal that we kill and eat daily.

When is the point you would argue it becomes more than a house cat or a cow? I'm always interested in finding out others views on the nature of sentience and when it occurs.

[Ming]

When is the point you would argue it becomes more than a house cat or a cow? I'm always interested in finding out others views on the nature of sentience and when it occurs.

That's a great question... and I personally don't have the knowledge or background to have an opinion that is worth anymore than just an opinion.

I tend to go along with the argument of "when it has the ability to sustain itself outside the mothers womb"... If it can't survive on it's own, it's not yet a human life. I'm sure some will say that inception is the beginning of the "soul", but I disagree. When does it actually become a person... I'm sure we will continue to argue that one until none of us are left on this planet.

[MrFun]

We don't mercy kill them because it isn't legal, not because it isn't the right thing to do. Hell, it's frequently illegal to help terminally ill people take their own lives.

As far as abortions go, you cannot take something away from someone who never had it. Destruction of memory and personality is what makes death scary. Fetuses have neither. They are less aware of themselves than the animals we eat. There is nothing immoral about abortion.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying fetuses do not fear death or pain?

I remember a story told by one of my teachers years ago, when I was a kid, who talked about a fetus about to be killed by some kind of long needle or sharp object. The doctor could see the fetus frantically trying to escape from the pain of the object.

[Ben Kenobi]

Abortion hasn't killed a single American. You either have to be born in this country or have passed a citizenship test and been naturalized to be an American.

Waited for someone to say this.

So that makes abortion ok because it isn't killing citizens?

[Ben Kenobi]

One can argue (and will) when it becomes a "child"... but early on, the "creature" is less aware than the average animal that we kill and eat daily.

You'd eat a fetus?

[Patroklos]

That's a great question... and I personally don't have the knowledge or background to have an opinion that is worth anymore than just an opinion.

Medicine has already given us the parameters to determine this. The only question is why is it not being applied consistantly?

I tend to go along with the argument of "when it has the ability to sustain itself outside the mothers womb"... If it can't survive on it's own, it's not yet a human life. I'm sure some will say that inception is the beginning of the "soul", but I disagree. When does it actually become a person... I'm sure we will continue to argue that one until none of us are left on this planet.

The simple reason why that position is invalid is because we don't kill patients for simply not being viable. Everyone on life support (even when not unconcious) are not viable by the same measure.

How do you justify your inconsistancy?

[Ben Kenobi]

I tend to go along with the argument of "when it has the ability to sustain itself outside the mothers womb"... If it can't survive on it's own, it's not yet a human life.

So someone who is disabled who can't fend for themselves isn't a person? That's an eye-opener Ming.

[Guynemer]

Guy,

Thanks for your post on premies.

Do you believe it's better not to try to save the live of a premature baby?

Do no harm.

A 22 weeker, as detailed above, has zero chance of having any quality of life. Those that survive face only endless suffering and pain while ringing up ~$1 million in medical bills a year that we, the people, pay for. I would not try to save a 22 weeker.

24 weekers, who have a chance (a small chance, but a chance), I'd do my best.

[Lorizael]

Waited for someone to say this.

So that makes abortion ok because it isn't killing citizens?

If we're declared a war against fetuses, then clearly, yes.