Abortion Doctor Gunned Down at Church

[rah]

and please post the scientific proof of when a fetus aquires a soul.

[Jon Miller]

I really don't see why in the US, the discussion comes down to:

Abortion at any time before 'birth' is fine.

Versus

Abortion is murder after conception, with discussion of souls/etc.

Who brought up souls Rah?

And people not caring that others are murdered.... is frankly astonishing.

JM

[Patroklos]

and please post the scientific proof of when a fetus aquires a soul.

Who said anything about a soul? Why is that relevant? A horrible redirect rah

Abortion at any time before 'birth' is fine.

Versus

Abortion is murder after conception, with discussion of souls/etc.

It really doesn't have to be, and gladly this is not the case unless you are talking to feminazis or religious nuts. It is near impossible for any pro-choice person to say a fetus is not a person until birth these days which has really given a lot of ammunition to bludgeon them with.

Similarly, any reasonably person not justifying their position through religious dogma can't really logically argue a frew cells constitutes a person. So we end up with these more complex discussions.

[Jon Miller]

Except, the discussions always seem to reference the two extreme positions.

Most of us are somewhere in between. However, far too many people say no abortion or abortion for everyone due to not thinking that the correct, scientific position could be applied.

Either personhood beginning with brainwaves, or with viability, both have strong rational support. Why are these never the positions that people discuss as the political discourse?

JM

[Lorizael]

Most of us are somewhere in between. However, far too many people say no abortion or abortion for everyone due to not thinking that the correct, scientific position could be applied.

I say abortions for some, miniature American flags for others.

[rah]

There are some people that say a fetus is a person because it has a soul.

I don't condone murder. Jesus. People say it's murder once the fetus is a person. Since people believe differently when it's a person, when it's murder changes also. I said I only condone it afterwards when the mother's life is in danger. SO where am I condoning murder.

This is why I don't want to discuss when a baby is a person. I was asked to say what I thought and I did. The person almost agreed with me pretty much but still had to attack.

IT's like asking a person if they believe in god.
I can state that I believe in a god like entitiy.

But if asked why I believe that, the answer isn't one thing. It's a combination of many different things. Some may have some logic to it and some may even claim something somewhat scientific. However some of the reasons are going to be very difficult to explain and even sound silly when voiced. IT all makes up a belief system. Ok, so some things explained are not clear and need to be clarified. It's not easy sometimes putting words to a feeling.

If someone comes along and listens to you try to verbalize it and hears one thing that may not be consistent and attacks it. They may be right, but it doesn't change your belief that god exists because of all the other reasons.

I see no problem with not being a fan of abortion personally while still accepting that mothers have some rights of what to do with their own bodies. I may agree with some and dissagree with others.

Which is why it's silly to argue beliefs.

Pat keeps harping on scientific proof on when a baby becomes a person. It seems to be somewhere similar to what my opinion is, but i don't see it changing my belief. I'm sure most religious people would dissagree at when science claims it's a person.

[Ben Kenobi]

If someone believes that the second the sperm hits the egg, it's a person, how can you possibly convince them of anything different. To me that's only potentially a person, no different then masturbation is just spewing and killing a lot of potential people.

Do you understand how conception works? It's the fusion of both gametes. It's totally different then just wanking off.

I don't understand why people equate conception with emission which are totally different from each other.

[Jon Miller]

I Agree, that argument from prochoice people seems Kenobian.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

Somewhere just prior to where the fetus is viable outside the womb.
I used to believe just when viable outside the womb but since some premies can survive with extrodinary care outside the womb earlier, I'll concede a little earlier. At exactly what day that happens, can be different for each baby so I'm not going to say day 200 or such. Please remember that I not an abortion fan except where the mother is in danger. But having said that, I don't believe I have the right to make that decision for the mother. That's a hard decision and I can say I'm happy I never had to have it with my wife. But regardless of my beliefs, the final decision would have been hers. (yes I would have tried to influence it)

Why viability, over say brain development or sentience?

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes I believe the mother's rights trump the babies when it comes to survival.

Do you believe that all abortions are done for reasons of survival?

Which is why I also believe the choice should be hers. I don't believe this is carte blanche to do drugs or other things that would harm the baby)

So let me get this straight. You are ok with dismembering babies, but not with drinking because that would harm the child?

The baby wouldn't exist without the mother. The baby is just a parasite up to a certain point.

Wow, ok. I hope you are aware that the young of a species growing inside the womb of her mother cannot be considered a parasite. Parasites are always of a different species from the host.

In my opinoin a baby is better off with a loving mother so I'd rather see the mother live in a life or death choice over the baby.

Agreed, but most abortions aren't done to save the life of the mother. Just because the child is unwanted doesn't make them worthless, the child doesn't have a choice of parents. It's the parent's responsibility to care for their children regardless of whether they planned for one or not, and especially when they don't particularly feel in the mood.

You are a parent rah, I can't see you abandoning a child just because you don't want her. Wanting is irrelevant a parent has a duty to care for their child.

If I was the one that had to carry the baby, I'd certainly want to be able to choose what to do.

So you believe a mother should be able to choose to kill her baby because she doesn't want to have a child? I wouldn't want that choice.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm sure most religious people would dissagree at when science claims it's a person.

Actually, the scientific consensus is conception. We can confirm it through in-vitro fertisation. I can see why primitive cultures who cannot witness conception would question whether it was the origin of human development, but we have all the evidence right in front of us.

[rah]

Ok, ben's here so I'm gone but i'll leave with a few comments and you guys can circle jerk them,

At conception, as far as I'm concerned its still just a potential person. Just slightly different then an unfertalized egg or sperm but still just potential. It's going to take the right circumstances and time for it to turn into a person. I don't give a rats ass what you think ben. A single cell entity is not a person.

And yes, I believe a woman should be able to choose. I may disagree with her decision. (again I'm not saying the mother should be able to do drugs) After a point she loses the ability to choose unless her life is threatened.

But up to the point that I consider a fetus a person, I dont' consider it murder.

Done. And poeple wonder I why I didn't want to argue when a fetus becomes a child.

[DinoDoc]

For someone who said that he'd rather not debate this issue, you certainly did alot of debating before leaving in a huff.

[rah]

Yeah Pat fooled me by starting to agree with me but then got picky. I always fall for it when people say I condone murder. A general weakness. I kept saying one more post, just one more post, but then Ben showed up.

[DinoDoc]

You might have informed him that murder is a legal term outside the bounds of this debate and saved us the spectacle of yet another of your "I hate Ben" posts.