Abortion Doctor Gunned Down at Church

[Patroklos]

If someone believes that the second the sperm hits the egg, it's a person, how can you possibly convince them of anything different.

That is irrelevant to you stating what you think.

To me that's only potentially a person, no different then masturbation is just spewing and killing a lot of potential people.

This is not a valid analogy and you know it, but it is irrelevant so whatever

Any further discussion on that is futile. We will not be able to change anybodies opinion because it's not based on anything logical.

This is false, the position I stated earlier is entirely logical and consistant. Yours may be too, but you seem to be reluctant to tell us what it is which in my experiance is normally because it is not logical.

It's a personal belief.

Not if it can be backed up with medical and scientific precidence, like mine is.

Do you think anything I could post would change BK's mind about this?

No, but it would alow me to better interpret your own statments and prevent you from wallowing in a perpetual grey are where you can make sweaping statments without having to justify them.

I refuse to waste my time. Feel free to state your belief and try to convince him otherwise. I'll let people believe what they want and not force my belief on them.

That is a very ironic statement. Regardless, you stating your opinion has nothing to do with convincing BK one way or the other, people here obviously just want to know what you think.

[rah]

If you just want what I believe, not a problem.
Somewhere just prior to where the fetus is viable outside the womb.
I used to believe just when viable outside the womb but since some premies can survive with extrodinary care outside the womb earlier, I'll concede a little earlier. At exactly what day that happens, can be different for each baby so I'm not going to say day 200 or such. Please remember that I not an abortion fan except where the mother is in danger. But having said that, I don't believe I have the right to make that decision for the mother. That's a hard decision and I can say I'm happy I never had to have it with my wife. But regardless of my beliefs, the final decision would have been hers. (yes I would have tried to influence it)

[Jon Miller]

You know that the law in the US currently allows abortion well after the point where the baby is viable outside of the womb.

JM

[Patroklos]

Then you pretty much have the same opinion I do, though I apply the perameters we use to determine "personhood" at every other stage of life to this one as well to determine this point.

So, since you do in fact believe that the fetus is a human person at some stage of pregnacy, how do you justify valuing the life of the mother over that of another person automatically (Maybe you don't, but it appears you do from above)? And why would this life and death choice for another person be that of the mother's?

You know that the law in the US currently allows abortion well after the point where the baby is viable outside of the womb.

Yes, US law is not logically consistant.

[rah]

To JM's point, So what

[Patroklos]

So what

What do you mean "so what?" From what you just said you personally believe that human children are being murdered by the thousands and you don't give a damn?

[rah]

Yes I believe the mother's rights trump the babies when it comes to survival. Which is why I also believe the choice should be hers. I don't believe this is carte blanche to do drugs or other things that would harm the baby)
The baby wouldn't exist without the mother. The baby is just a parasite up to a certain point. In my opinoin a baby is better off with a loving mother so I'd rather see the mother live in a life or death choice over the baby. If the mother survives there's always a chance for another baby. If I was the one that had to carry the baby, I'd certainly want to be able to choose what to do.

[Jon Miller]

But in most cases we aren't talking about survival.

JM
(The US has one of the more liberal abortion laws in the world.)

[Jon Miller]

But in most cases we aren't talking about survival.

JM
(The US has one of the more liberal abortion laws in the world.)

[rah]

What do you mean "so what?" From what you just said you personally believe that human children are being murdered by the thousands and you don't give a damn?

No, if you reread what I said, I said I'm not a fan of abortion. TO clarify, I don't condone late term abortions exept under extreme circumstances. But for those first trimester abortions, I don't consider those murders. The exact point of where a fetus is a person is fluid (as I stated) and I'm not going to argue different opinions on that. I've stated mine, you've stated yours, let's leave it at that.
Don't put words in my mouth. You have no ****ING IDEA of how much I give a damn about things.
The fact that I would let my wife make the final decision is no real indication of how much I give a damn about abortion. (it's about how much I respect my wife)

[Patroklos]

Yes I believe the mother's rights trump the babies when it comes to survival. Which is why I also believe the choice should be hers.

Definitive statments, the spice of discussion!

I don't believe this is carte blanche to do drugs or other things that would harm the baby)
The baby wouldn't exist without the mother. The baby is just a parasite up to a certain point.

Yes, and that point is to about age 6 or 7. In any case, what is your justication for the suspension of some human rights (arbitrary exectution) and the enforcement of others (no drugs)? Your parasite one is horribly inadequate.

In my opinoin a baby is better off with a loving mother so I'd rather see the mother live in a life or death choice over the baby.

I hope you are not suggesting we codify "being loved" as a prerequisite for maintaining the existance of human beings.

If the mother survives there's always a chance for another baby.

If the baby survives there's always a chance of another baby.

If I was the one that had to carry the baby, I'd certainly want to be able to choose what to do.

There are a lot of human beings that make my life difficult, usually on purpose, yet it is not my perogative to off them for my convienience.

I realize these are your opinions rah, and I not trying to convince you, but surely you realize how completely arbitrary and unjustifiable they are?

[rah]

I actually don't see your opinions as anything different either. I don't believe mine are arbitrary and I'm sure you don't either.
You try to complicate what I say. I'm not say that being loved is a prerequisite, I'm saying it's the prefered.
And no the child is not a parasite on the mother till 6 or 7 you idiot. anyone else could provide that support.

[Patroklos]

No, if you reread what I said, I said I'm not a fan of abortion. TO clarify, I don't condone late term abortions exept under extreme circumstances. But for those first trimester abortions, I don't consider those murders.

Then we are in agreement, however your statment "so what" does not jive with your earlier stated position.

The exact point of where a fetus is a person is fluid (as I stated) and I'm not going to argue different opinions on that. I've stated mine, you've stated yours, let's leave it at that.

Thats fine, but you did state that whatever the point is before viablility AFTER viability it is a person and there are thousands of unneeded abortions after that point a year.

Don't put words in my mouth. You have no ****ING IDEA of how much I give a damn about things.

You said "so what," not me.

The fact that I would let my wife make the final decision is no real indication of how much I give a damn about abortion.

???

Please don't try and hide behind your marriage as your brother did. Whether or not the abortion in question is that of your wife or not is irrelevant. If you believe what is in the womb is a person (which you do in certain cases) you have not provided a logically consistent reason to suspend its human rights.

If your cool with murdering people out of convenience or as it appears suspending your above stated rules for just your convenience personally say so. You very clearly said that after viability it is a person, if you are willing to allow the arbitrary destruction of a human life after that point, your wife or not, you are condoning murder. The inability for people to be honest with themselves about their motives is astonishing.

[Patroklos]

I actually don't see your opinions as anything different either. I don't believe mine are arbitrary and I'm sure you don't either.

Mine are based on taking the medical parameters used everywhere else and applying them consistantly. They may be arbitrary, but they are not MY arbitrary parameters. I would consider medical sicentists to have a certain level of authority in the matter. And when the laws are not consistant, there is no harm in pointing out the hypocracy.

You have yet to provide a logical defense of your position. You don't have to, probably because you don't have one, but there is nothing wrong with me pointing that out.

You try to complicate what I say. I'm not say that being loved is a prerequisite, I'm saying it's the prefered.

Don't quibble. You very clearly justified chosing one person over another based on the love one had for the other. Its ridiculous on its face, but it in fact exactly what you said.

And no the child is not a parasite on the mother till 6 or 7 you idiot. anyone else could provide that support.

Do you imagine "parasite" means dependant on a particular individual? Regardless of my very accurate application of the word parasite, you're point is not relevant anyway. You need a justifiable reason to suspend human rights that is consistant with other instances.

[rah]

Actually all i said was that that after viability, that mothers survival is the only thing that trumps baby's rights.
To that many babys are aborted after what I consider viability is really not the issue. I've already said I don't agree with those. Hence my so what. The issue is that everyone seems to have a different belief of when the baby is a person. THose that believe it at conception are silly in my opinion, but that's their belief. Some believe it's when the baby is born, which makes more sense but still silly in my opinion. So I'm not going to accuse someone of condoning murder just because their definition of when the baby is a person is different them mine. And I expect the same consideration in return.