Abortion Doctor Gunned Down at Church

[chequita guevara]

We don't mercy kill them because it isn't legal, not because it isn't the right thing to do. Hell, it's frequently illegal to help terminally ill people take their own lives.

As far as abortions go, you cannot take something away from someone who never had it. Destruction of memory and personality is what makes death scary. Fetuses have neither. They are less aware of themselves than the animals we eat. There is nothing immoral about abortion.

[Ben Kenobi]

Whether you feel it is private or not is only relevant to your own behavior. The point is that you acted against your own beliefs for the sole purpose to try to harm someone. Very christian of you.

You were the one who brought it up in the first place. I daresay you are charging me with your own actions.

I'm not sure why you asked me other then for the purpose of trying to hurt me. I simply responded in kind.

I didn't expect you to reveal anything, and you've confirmed that while you are certainly quick to dish it out, you certainly can't receive what you are doing to others.

[Ming]

There is nothing immoral about abortion.

That is your opinion... and while some agree with you, others don't.
And that's why pro choice is the only answer. For those that find it immoral, they don't have to do it. They don't have to "sin" or whatever they want to call it. For others, they should have the choice of what they want to do with their body.

It's the only reasonable solution.

[Ben Kenobi]

And, of course, the "other side" would cite statistics that are likely polar opposites to yours.

Actually, the other side confirms what I've said. The abortionist in the New York Times states very clearly that late term abortions are done primarily for convenience on healthy moms with healthy babies.

So, in the end, if I want information that's anywhere near the truth, I need to find a nonbiased source.

I've quoted an abortion provider.

Probably governmental in nature. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that Planned Parenthood, et al., don't release that sort of information due to HIPPA and other privacy concerns.

Planned Parenthood, a neutral source?

Largest sole provider of abortions in America.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/PPFA_2007-2008_Annual_Report.pdf

305,310 abortions, of which they received 350 million in government funds, about 1200 per abortion.

Everyone's life circumstances are different. You were fortunate to wind up with parents who did a more than capable job of raising you, Ben. Other children, perhaps, were not as fortunate. What is society to do in those situations?

I'm aware of that. I don't think the solution is to force everyone else to pay money through taxation. I don't see how forcing people to do anything is 'compassionate'.

That's an admirable trait. Unfortunately, it's obvious that a lot of other people do not share it, otherwise the abortion rate would be much lower.

I've seen many, many generous people, and I wish that those ladies considering having an abortion were to meet these folks before. It would save so much heartache and suffering. If there's any reading the thread, let me know and I'll get you in touch with them.

Yes, they should. But they don't in a lot of cases. I imagine it comes down to whether something has an immediate, discernable impact on their lives. After all, folks are more likely to lend a hand if a family member or friend is in dire straits — but that's not necessarily true if the suffering/need is more distant. And it's not just the abortion issue that this is seen in. Just look at the hunger in other parts of the world, such as Africa and parts of Asia. It's seemingly a chronic condition. It could be solved or greatly reduced with a concentrated effort, but it usually doesn't materialize. Again, because I think people don't identify with suffering/need unless it's closer to them.

WRT the hunger issue, I'm not convinced that the problem is a lack of generosity, but that it's hard to get the food to the people who need it. As for abortion, I agree that there are folks who go out of their way to discourage others and make things more difficult. I've seen it myself. I'm not sure how it's consistant with a 'pro-choice' ethic, in proventing others from enabling women to make the choice to keep their child.

[Ben Kenobi]

This is at 22 weeks.

The reason it's called a late-term abortion is because it's in the third trimester.

[Patroklos]

We don't mercy kill them because it isn't legal, not because it isn't the right thing to do. Hell, it's frequently illegal to help terminally ill people take their own lives.

Ah, I see, so in other words you think it should be legal to kill whomever we deem not living to the standards you just made up. Sounds about right for a communist

As far as abortions go, you cannot take something away from someone who never had it. Destruction of memory and personality is what makes death scary. Fetuses have neither. They are less aware of themselves than the animals we eat. There is nothing immoral about abortion.

At some point science and medicine says they have a mind, what we use to decide whether or not the medically terminate life in all other instances regardless of other physical factors. You are not being logically consistant che, and you know it.

So we can just start offing Alzhiemers victims then? Anyone with amnesia? Hell, how about anyone in a coma, not like we can resonably guarantee they will have a functioning mind again (unlike unborn children).

And that's why pro choice is the only answer. For those that find it immoral, they don't have to do it. They don't have to "sin" or whatever they want to call it. For others, they should have the choice of what they want to do with their body.

It's the only reasonable solution.

False. If you honestly think people are being murdered for convienence the last thing you should do is just "live and let live," irony intentional.

Medicine has told us what constitutes a human being already and we use it consistantly every day in multipe cases, except one. Logical consistancy is not hard to apply in this case.

[Ben Kenobi]

And that's why pro choice is the only answer. For those that find it immoral, they don't have to do it. They don't have to "sin" or whatever they want to call it. For others, they should have the choice of what they want to do with their body.

Don't like slavery, don't own a slave!

As for doing what you like with your body is fine, but you don't believe a pregnant woman is eating for two?

[Ben Kenobi]

Another thought. Those who use words like "convenience" to describe or talk about a woman's decision to get an aboriton do a serious injustice to the emotional turmoil that goes in a woman's decision-making process to get an abortion. I'm betting that most women who do get an abortion do not make their decision lightly.

So it's ok to kill someone because you are in emotional turmoil? I don't see how that makes any difference to the child. It doesn't really matter how much you deliberate, the result is the same. The choice is life or death for the child.

[Ming]

You think it's murder, others don't. Some people think brainwashing children with relgion is a bad thing, others don't.

I do agree that late term abortions should be illegal unless there is a serious threat to the mother, or if a serious medical problem might occur. If the mother doesn't want to have a baby, she should make the decision early in the process.

Pro choice is the only solution for a nation that is so closely divided on the issue.

[Ben Kenobi]

Here comes Pattycakes, to save us from barbarism and savagery (as if anyone here is arguing to shovel children into furnaces)!

How else do you think Tiller destroys the corpses? They are burned.

[Ben Kenobi]

I have a good friend whose wife just recently gave birth to twins. One of the two had a chromosonal defect and died a few hours after birth (he was ~2lbs, defective heart, defective brain, you name it). The other twin was healthy. If the scenario had been different - if the healthy twin wasn't there, I can't figure how the law should prevent a woman in her situation from deciding not to carry to term.

For the same reason we don't kill those with disabilities to 'spare them from pain'.

If we are arguing that someone has insufficient quality of life, then what stops us from declaring someone who faces the prospect of a lifelong disability as unworthy of life?

It's one thing if a child dies due to natural causes. It's quite another if the child dies at your hand. That's why if I ever faced that situation, I'd never see abortion as the option.

[Ben Kenobi]

Pro choice is the only solution for a nation that is so closely divided on the issue.

So you disagree with Lincoln, when he states,

"This nation shall not permanently endure, half slave and half free"?

[Ben Kenobi]

Guy,

Thanks for your post on premies.

Do you believe it's better not to try to save the live of a premature baby?

[Ming]

So you disagree with Lincoln, when he states,

"This nation shall not permanently endure, half slave and half free"?

Typical... you keep trying to change the subject. This isn't about slavery.

[Patroklos]

You think it's murder, others don't. Some people think brainwashing children with relgion is a bad thing, others don't.

Any logically consistant application of the normal parameters we use to determine what constitutes human life when it is perhaps necessary to end it makes it murder.

So, what is your justification for not being logically consistant?

I do agree that late term abortions should be illegal unless there is a serious threat to the mother, or if a serious medical problem might occur. If the mother doesn't want to have a baby, she should make the decision early in the process.

We are of the same mind. If you restict abortion to 22 weeks (or whatever medicine says) it is near impossible that you will destroy a developed mind. I prefer to error on the safe side, and I believe that for the DP as well

Pro choice is the only solution for a nation that is so closely divided on the issue.

Sorry, when we are killing tens of thousands of innocent children a year, appeasment is not the proper option to exercise.