Abortion Doctor Gunned Down at Church

[SlowwHand]

You can keep the serious perspectives, with my thanks. Doctors have my total respect.

[Guynemer]

Wow. Thanks.

Speechless.

[Ben Kenobi]

I wouldn't want your job, and have to make some of your decisions.

[Ming]

That actually is what you posted. Verbatim. Your arguement does seem to be coalescing around a new point after initially suffering from Jello like qualities though it still seems to have a moving target aspect to it.

It's not my fault you wish to judge the intent in a way different than it was meant. But again, I'm sure it's more fun when you just make up what you think the intent was... feel free to define things and look at them through your own rose colored glasses while ignoring reality. Your option, right or wrong.

Let's say that there is an advancement in medical science that increases the survivability of fetus at an earlier stage of development. Would that make the fetus you are describing as akin to food animals suddenly more aware than they were an hour before you heard about it?The problem here seems to be that I'm going to the trouble of reading your postsWhat is it?Is this a wall you like retreating to?How do you define "awareness"?

Maybe... can you absolutly define when it becomes a human. No... What is your opinon on it. Come on, what is your definition. You asked me mine, and I responded. What is awareness, and how does one measure it... can you?

You asked, and my opinion remains consistant. If it is viable, I'm willing to consider it human. When do you consider a fetus a person? The simple truth is, there is no point that we can or will ever agree on.

[Ming]

Logically consistant talk that has yet to be refuted by anyone here.

Only your opinion... you aren't being consistant, but feel free to think you are.

No, you said thats when you think the fetus is viable. It is a very important distiction because viable or not fetus has no rights, a human being has a whole lot of them.

Now you are just arguing semantics...

Fair enough, but then you have to apply the standard consistantly across the board.

It's all a matter of what you consider consistant. You seem to stretch only when it fits your definition...

And now we have to broach the issue of why you give one human being rights over another.

You're right... this is a big issue with no easy solution.

The easy nitpick is that babies can't survive in the real world, but I know what you mean so I won't belabor the point. However you have again broached a problem because 1.) your standard for being human at the beginning of life is not consistant to the one you apply during or at the end and 2.) again once human they have the same rights as the mother.

This is where you aren't being consistant. You seem to be arguing for the rights of the baby over the rights of the mother and not equal rights. I have stated that it's my opinion that the decision should be up to the mother. And nothing you can say will change my mind on that. That doesn't mean I don't think the child has rights... they both have rights, and in this situation, I think the mother should make the call.

Its not an opinion, the parameters I am using (and attemtping to get verified by Guy) are the same ones we use to verify who is a person with rights at every other stage of life. Certain pro-choice people have to deliberately use a double standard to justify their position which in itself speaks to alterior motives.

Well... it really is an opinion, whether it's yours of somebody elses... because in reallity, right now... the law doesn't see a fetus as having any rights.

Exactly you were not, you simple said "because" and got indignant. Thats how creationists deal with invasive questions.

Gee... you get upset when somebody disagrees with your holier than thou attitude and then your response is to throw around an insult... real great consistant argument there

If you can't back up your point with a coherent rational or substance than it is an opinion. And to be honest and opinion you can't base on anything whatsoever is really not worth a thing.

What I am doing is not stating opionion.

Yes you are.

So do I, then again I would never marry a woman with such a selfish view of life. Then again such a selfish survival instinct is a natural reaction, which is why the decision should be medical.

I'm sure there are tons of woman who would love a husband who wants her dead.

Just so you know, just because there is a case where the choice is mother or child does not mean the mother has the best prognosis for survival.

So you are saying it shouldn't be her choice... that you have the right to say she should die. Feel free to go to some hospital and tell a mother that.

That doesn't mean there isn't a right decision to make. That is subjective morally, but not legally. Well, at least it won't be when we apply that law consistantly.

It is being applied consistantly right now... the fetus has no rights.

At least your honest. It makes your opinion useless as far as fleshing out what official policy is, but I find you at least academically honest in admitting that convienence and self interest are the prime motivators of your decision making process. Most pro-choice people don't have the balls to flat out state that.

My opinion is worth as much as your is... and nothing you say changes that.

[DinoDoc]

feel free to define things and look at them through your own rose colored glasses while ignoring reality.

I suppose I could spew patronizing replies laced with various versions of "It's meh opinyun!" but that would be stepping on the schtick of someone else. I'd rather not waste my time with that and instead try and have an adult conversation.

Maybe... can you absolutly define when it becomes a human.

No, I can't. However, it's that doubt that keeps me from comparing "it" to food or treating "its" existance as being irrelevent to the conversation. Personally, I'm against abortion in all cases save for the reasons of health of the mother or because of catastrophic illness on the part of the unborn child.

What is awareness, and how does one measure it... can you?

That was a word bandied about by che and yourself when you both brought up a food animal comparison. Hence the reason, I'm more interested in how you would define or measure it. Sentience is a rather fuzzy concept for me to pin down when it occurs. That was the reason I asked you about it.

If it is viable, I'm willing to consider it human.

What is it before that time?

[Ming]

You are full of questions, but no answers yourself.

[DinoDoc]

You forgot to tell me it was your opinion, Ming.

[Ming]

I've always stated that it is just my opinion... And from the variety of different opinions from many different sorces, that's about all it can be right now since nobody has any real proof to support their thoughts.

[DaShi]

You were the one who brought it up in the first place. I daresay you are charging me with your own actions.

I'm not sure why you asked me other then for the purpose of trying to hurt me. I simply responded in kind.

No, you brought it up first by saying that you would pay of your own volition. I simply asked you, if you had. That you took offense to that question is solely your own issue and has nothing to do with me. You seem to have severe emotional problems, if a simple question is all it takes to set you off.

I didn't expect you to reveal anything, and you've confirmed that while you are certainly quick to dish it out, you certainly can't receive what you are doing to others.

I asked you a simple question and you went so far as to break your own moral codes in an attempt to hurt me. You are clearly the villain here Ben. Not that I really care. It just shows what a hypocrit you are.

[Krill]

That doesn't answer the question. The question was what parameters do they use to determine someone is no longer a person and can be terminated intentionally.

Not analogous, the reason doctors deny transplant requests is because they deam that it won't work.

Hello? You do see why they are comparable then?

[Ben Kenobi]

No, you brought it up first by saying that you would pay of your own volition. I simply asked you, if you had.

And I said that I did.

I asked you a simple question and you went so far as to break your own moral codes in an attempt to hurt me. You are clearly the villain here Ben. Not that I really care. It just shows what a hypocrit you are.

Did you even bother reading my previous answer? I answered that question.

[DaShi]

And I said that I did.

And I inquired how much, which you, for some bizarre reason, took as a declaration of war. Do you blow up like this whenever anyone asks you a simple question? Don't blow up over that question please.

Did you even bother reading my previous answer? I answered that question.

Yes, you've continued being a hypocrit treating me as you wouldn't want to be treated yourself. All I did was ask you a simple question because I was curious as to how money you may have donated. Since you felt it was private, I inquired no further. Yet you still feel the need to attack me over this. You are a small petty thing.

[Elok]

It's spelled "hypocrite." With an "e." Sorry, but that bugs me. NOT going to get bogged down in a discussion of abortion...

[DaShi]

You hippocrypt!