My Stupid State, part eleventy-seven

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DanS
I'm just curious as to how this young man could have misunderstood. Nobody in front of him put the wafer in their pocket. And nobody after.

If he's ever been to church, he will have never seen such a thing. He must be awfully creative.

That doesn't mean something is wrong. After all, all those folks are trying to save their "eternal souls!" They want absolution right away. Might die and have to go to purgatory in the next second.

[DanS]

Yeh, somebody popping a squat and defecating in the aisles during communion isn't wrong either. But I've never seen it.

[Gibsie]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
None taken.

The Catholic church believes in the real presence, in that after the bread and the wine is consecrated by the priest during the mass, that the bread and the wine becomes the body and blood of Christ himself.

This is why it is such an issue, that so long as that wafer is there and has been consecrated, it's truly Christ's flesh.

This is also why anyone who isn't a Catholic should not take communion in the Catholic church, because they do not believe in the Real Presence.

Okay, that is all fine and you have explained well why it is such a big deal. But surely it should be up to the church to punish the offender in their own terms rather than the uni. Perhaps excommunication from the church would be more suitable than expulsion from his school?

[Ben Kenobi]

Okay, that is all fine and you have explained well why it is such a big deal. But surely it should be up to the church to punish the offender in their own terms rather than the uni. Perhaps excommunication from the church would be more suitable than expulsion from his school?

Good question.

Ask yourself what would happen if someone were caught spraypainting a synagogue with a swatstika.

If that person was an employee of the school, it would be a public scandal for the university if they were employing him.

That's why this is being treated so seriously, and his response afterwards (not handing back the communion wafer immediately), doesn't help matters. It escalated things which is why expulsion is one of the options being considered.

I'm not sure what's the issue with his friend, if he did not present himself to the priest, then he shouldn't be subject to expulsion whatsoever. He didn't disrupt the service in any way.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Ask yourself what would happen if someone were caught spraypainting a synagogue with a swatstika.

Not . the . same . thing . at . all . you . ****ing . moron.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
The Orthodox do, and they are in communion with the Catholic church, so they can take communion in any Catholic church and vice-versa.

Where did you hear that? 'Taint so. The RCC is in our eyes heretical (Immaculate Conception, Filioque, infallibility, etc.) and Catholics are NOT allowed to receive; an Orthodox taking Catholic communion is considered to have excommunicated him/herself. There's no problem from the Catholic end since IIRC you consider us merely schismatic, not heretical, but it doesn't matter since we don't agree.

Don't know enough about the actual case to comment--and that source doesn't seem terribly unbiased--but based on what I'm reading, the kid in question should not be expelled. T'other should probably be disciplined but to a much lesser extent than expulsion (and I assume the church will be having a vigorous chat with him over his game of Eucharistic keep-away).

[Ben Kenobi]

Where did you hear that? 'Taint so. The RCC is in our eyes heretical (Immaculate Conception, Filioque, infallibility, etc.) and Catholics are NOT allowed to receive;

From your standpoint. In ours you are in communion, and you folks are permitted to take communion with us.

WRT to the question of the Real Presence, there is no difference between either the Catholic or Orthodox.

There's no problem from the Catholic end since IIRC you consider us merely schismatic, not heretical.

That is all I meant. Sorry for not clarifying.

[Felch]

Originally posted by Elok
Where did you hear that? 'Taint so. The RCC is in our eyes heretical (Immaculate Conception, Filioque, infallibility, etc.)

Orthodoxy doesn't agree with the Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos? I knew about Filioque and papal supremacy, but that's new to me.

Besides matters of Church hierarchy, the origin of the Holy Spirit, and that little incident in 1204, I don't really see what you guys have against us. The various patriarchates just come across as bitter sometimes.

As far as this incident goes, the kid should be excommunicated until he repents, but not expelled. Possibly roughed up by old church ladies with umbrellas. I'd pay to see that actually.

And confirmation isn't a requirement for communion. Ben was in RCIA (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) so that would have been true for him, but children who are raised Catholic will often recieve the Eucharist for a few years before they are confirmed.

[DinoDoc]

Cook refused to return a wafer he accepted but did not swallow during a June 29 service at UCF. The wafer, once consecrated, is considered sacred and must be immediately consumed, according to church teachings. Cook, who reportedly was raised Roman Catholic, has said he did not realize he was required to swallow the wafer right away and merely wanted to show it to a friend.

Am I the only one that thinks he should be expelled for being stupid?

[Imran Siddiqui]

If that person was an employee of the school, it would be a public scandal for the university if they were employing him.

He's not an employee of the school (Student Council President ain't employed by the institution). So why should he be expelled?

[DinoDoc]

Because he sounds incredibly stupid based on his reasoning? He wanted to show a wafer to his friend? :wtf:

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben was in RCIA (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) so that would have been true for him, but children who are raised Catholic will often recieve the Eucharist for a few years before they are confirmed.

Yes, I was in RCIA.

I thought First Communion came after Confirmation. You'd get confirmed and then you could take the bread and the wine.

Prior to First Communion kids could go up and receive the blessing, but they couldn't actually take the bread and the wine.

Thanks for correcting me, this is something I don't know very much about, since I didn't grow up in the faith!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Because he sounds incredibly stupid based on his reasoning? He wanted to show a wafer to his friend? :wtf:

How long has it been since you've been in college? I'm pretty sure when you were there you knew plenty who weren't exactly geniuses.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


It says that the chapel is on the campus, not that the chapel is the property of the University of Central Florida.

It's private religious space. He doesn't have the right to disrupt the mass under any circumstances.

It doesn't mention a chapel at all, the service was held in the student union.

ACK!

[Felch]

Adults who enter would be confirmed first, but that's an accident of the liturgy. Since the eucharist comes at the end and the other sacrements come earlier it just works out that way.

The typical cradle to grave order of sacrements would go something like:

1)Baptism
2)(1st) Confession (~7 years old)
3)(1st) Eucharist (~8 years old)
4)Confirmation (~13 years old)
5)Matrimony or Holy Orders
6)Extreme Unction

Ages were what I was for them. Confession is tightly linked to the Eucharist because you're supposed to go through with a clean moral slate. They're set at about 7 or 8 years old because that's the age the Church feels children should be able to distinguish between right and wrong.

Confirmation is more of a coming of age ritual, like a bar mitzvah. It's the official adulthood for the Church, e.g. any confirmed male is technically eligible for the papacy.