LordShiva and DaShi's homework: Teh Disadvantages of Elite Education

[GePap]

I don;t know, back then there WAS 'help' to interact with.

Nowadays your average upper middle class child (unless they happen to use mass transit in a large city) won't interact with actual poor people becuase they will hardly ever meet one.

[Ben Kenobi]

You must've gone to some pretty lame-ass school. All faculties all have labs, computers are essential for everyone.

Computers! = Labs.

I agree that computers are helpful, but they are in no way essential to learning history. Take away computers, and not much changes in the way we teach history. Take away computers and computer science goes away entirely.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Computers! = Labs.

Uh. I'm not sure what the hell you are talking about.

My school had a computer science lab, an arts student PC lab (which was massive), an arts student Mac lab (which was quite large), an engineering PC lab (which was massive), etc.

All students need regular PC access. I sometimes forget you went to some hick school in the middle of nowhere in BC, but now you just reminded me. Apparently PC labs didn't exist at your school. And you went there in the 21st century? Wow.

Take away computers and computer science goes away entirely.

Most of the CS courses probably use PCs just the same amount as arts students. You seem to think computer science is about typing on computers, when in reality it is about mathematics. I've had CS courses where I've never touched a computer, whereas in my history courses I needed to type up essays on computers...

The simple fact here is both the arts students and the CS students need access to PCs. Period. You cannot have a modern university and have no PC access for your arts students.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
I don;t know, back then there WAS 'help' to interact with.

Yeah, but unless you're going to go "Everybody ought to have a maid" on me, I don't think they really interacted all that much in a meaningful interpersonal way.

[Victor Galis]

Originally posted by GePap


The issue is not one of having decided to speak to the plumber or not, its the fact that the professor felt that even if he wanted to, he couldn't.

If he'd wanted to talk to him, he'd have had something to talk to him about, unless you mean wanted to talk to him in a very general sense. The fundamental issue here if I can put it in terms one of our debate team veterans put it in: is one of not asking, "So what?" Why is it important that he be able to talk to the plumber? Nowhere in that article is there any reasoning for that. It's just taken for granted that the inability to talk to that plumber constitutes a problem. I argue that it doesn't.

The whole being better or worse than someone else based on subjective criteria is wholly irrelevant. The plumber is no more able to talk to the author than the author is able to talk to the plumber. I continue to argue that nothing of value is lost.

It is an issue of skills.

I don't see how the ability to make meaningless small talk and pretending to care about things you don't belongs to a skillset that should be taught in elite universities. I can see how those skills might be useful, I just don't see how the lack of those skills constitutes an indictment of our universities.

IF you wanted to speak to the plumber, could you actually engage in a conversation, or would you be so close minded that it would be impossible?

But why would I want to speak to him? I'm not suggesting he's beneath me, I'm suggesting we probably share no common interests. If we do share a common interest, then there's something we can talk about.

That is what the professor brings up, that even if your average elite school student had a plumber at home and felt the compulsion to converse with the plumber, they would actually lack the skills to really hold a conversation with the plumber.

And again... I fail to see how teaching that is the responsibility of the elite schools, or how the lack of those skills represents a personal failing on the part of the author. The only thing I'm getting from the author is that he hasn't been taught to ask all the right questions when faced with a "problem."

[Ben Kenobi]

Uh. I'm not sure what the hell you are talking about.

Obviously.

My school had a computer science lab, an arts student PC lab (which was massive), an arts student Mac lab (which was quite large), an engineering PC lab (which was massive), etc.

My school did not have a separate lab for arts students and we did just fine. A lab is a luxury, not a necessity for the arts program.

All students need regular PC access.

Why? Why is it absolutely necessary that they must have regular PC access?

I sometimes forget you went to some hick school in the middle of nowhere in BC, but now you just reminded me. Apparently PC labs didn't exist at your school. And you went there in the 21st century? Wow.

We just used the CS lab when it was free. No hardships.

Most of the CS courses probably use PCs just the same amount as arts students.

I've done several programming courses. You can't do them at all without a PC. You can learn history easily without ever touching a computer.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

You seem to think computer science is about typing on computers, when in reality it is about mathematics. I've had CS courses where I've never touched a computer, whereas in my history courses I needed to type up essays on computers...

Thank you. Are you unfamiliar with the concept of hard copy? I know you are young but back in the dark ages you could write out your essay by hand.

The simple fact here is both the arts students and the CS students need access to PCs. Period. You cannot have a modern university and have no PC access for your arts students.

That does not mean they need a lab devoted to them either. I don't think history would be much affected without computers.

[Kuciwalker]

Why? Why is it absolutely necessary that they must have regular PC access?

BECAUSE BASICALLY EVERYTHING A STUDENT WILL EVER DO WILL BE ON OR THROUGH A COMPUTER. DUH.

Thank you. Are you unfamiliar with the concept of hard copy? I know you are young but back in the dark ages you could write out your essay by hand.

NO ONE DOES THIS ANYMORE. THE SUGGESTION IS RIDICULOUS.

I mean, technically they don't need PAPER either! They could use clay tablets.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

Why? Why is it absolutely necessary that they must have regular PC access?

Are you seriously this dense? Do you not know how how computers are used at modern schools? Hell, look at the University of Calgary's new Digital Library just for kicks. Look at services like Google Scholar. PC access at schools are essential for modern education.

We just used the CS lab when it was free. No hardships.

At my school, only CS students can use the CS labs. We have a security system to keep the arts students out. You need to swipe a card to get in.

Besides, I'm not sure you'd know WTF to do with Solaris and Linux.

I've done several programming courses. You can't do them at all without a PC. You can learn history easily without ever touching a computer.

Why is this so hard for you to understand?

Because I actually did a degree in computer science and understand that programming courses are the minority. You did not take CS so when you're here lecturing me about it, I do not understand your bull****.

Thank you. Are you unfamiliar with the concept of hard copy? I know you are young but back in the dark ages you could write out your essay by hand.

Most profs do not accept handwritten essays unless it's on an exam.

Jesus Ben, what decade did you go to school in?

That does not mean they need a lab devoted to them either. I don't think history would be much affected without computers.

To be honest, I don't think history would be much affected by the lack of ****ing history classes.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Yeah, but unless you're going to go "Everybody ought to have a maid" on me, I don't think they really interacted all that much in a meaningful interpersonal way.

I don't know. I grew up with a maid (if you are middle class in Latin America, this is the case) and if the help lives where you live and interacts with you on a daily basis regarding basic life experiences, like meals, its really almost impossible not to have a meaningful personal interaction at least once. That is not to say you become "friends", or that the inherent class and power distinctions in the relationship ever go away or are even forgotten, but you do have shared life experiences, which is one basis at least to be able to converse with someone.

But getting back the the point, while the professor's basic example obviously causes some problems, I agree with him on the overarching point.

[Kontiki]

I graduated from undergrad 11 years ago, and I didn't have a single course where a prof would accept a hand written paper.

[Ben Kenobi]

Are you seriously this dense? Do you not know how how computers are used at modern schools?

For most people they are an expensive toy and a distraction. Show me how a computer is absolutely essential to the teaching of history and I will say you have a case.

Hell, look at the University of Calgary's new Digital Library just for kicks. Look at services like Google Scholar. PC access at schools are essential for modern education.

It's absolutely impossible to do research without google?

At my school, only CS students can use the CS labs. We have a security system to keep the arts students out. You need to swipe a card to get in.

Our school doesn't have the bunker mentality yours seems to have.

Besides, I'm not sure you'd know WTF to do with Solaris and Linux.

I'm sure you would be fazed by unix, which I had to use all the time in my physics labs.

Because I actually did a degree in computer science and understand that programming courses are the minority. You did not take CS so when you're here lecturing me about it, I do not understand your bull****.

And you didn't take a history course. So where do you get off lecturing me. I don't get why you have such a hard time understanding my point. Computers are essential to all CS courses, computers are not essential to history courses.

At least I've taken some CS courses, so I know what I'm talking about more then you know about history ones. No computers, no CS courses.

Most profs do not accept handwritten essays unless it's on an exam.

Mine did. They didn't care so long as it was legible.

Jesus Ben, what decade did you go to school in?

I'm only about a year or so out. I know people who submitted in handwritten essays cause I have had to tutor them.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
For most people they are an expensive toy and a distraction. Show me how a computer is absolutely essential to the teaching of history and I will say you have a case.

You can't turn in a single essay without a computer today. You fail.

It's absolutely impossible to do research without google?

It's the most effective way now, to use online resources. Books still exist but they're not as efficient.

I'm sure you would be fazed by unix, which I had to use all the time in my physics labs.

Why would I be "fazed" by Unix? I used it throughout university in a development capacity, I've supported it in a real world capacity from Solaris servers at a major US investment bank to running on the world's fastest supercomputers. No, Unix doesn't "faze" me.

And you didn't take a history course. So where do you get off lecturing me. I don't get why you have such a hard time understanding my point. Computers are essential to all CS courses, computers are not essential to history courses.

I took two history courses. Next to my philosophy courses, some of the easiest courses one could take at school and everyone knew it. I went to about one class, skim-read the textbook and then wrote my essay exams relying on my bull****ting ability from my philosophy courses and passed with flying colours.

Computers are not essential to all CS courses. Jesus ****ing christ, why do you exist in this world.

Go take a theoretical computer science course using a computer. I dare you.

Meanwhile, go turn in a history paper without using a computer.

Mine did. They didn't care so long as it was legible.

As I said, you didn't go to a real school. You went to a charity school in the middle of nowhere that obviously had no educational value, as you know nothing.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Asher
It's the most effective way now, to use online resources. Books still exist but they're not as efficient.

Until a lot more books are fully scanned in and made available over the internet, serious research is still best done from books, though you would use computers to find the books faster.

[Ben Kenobi]

You can't turn in a single essay without a computer today. You fail.

Sure you can. My profs had no problem so long as it was legible. They didn't care.

It's the most effective way now, to use online resources. Books still exist but they're not as efficient.

Wow, you know nothing about research. I could use google, or I could just learn my way around the library. The catalogue system is not that complicated. If you know how it is organised you can find whatever book you want and you don't have to look it up on a computer.

Of course that requires an education and some experience working with catalogues, but I guess a computer is superior.

Why would I be "fazed" by Unix? I used it throughout university in a development capacity, I've supported it in a real world capacity from Solaris servers at a major US investment bank to running on the world's fastest supercomputers. No, Unix doesn't "faze" me.

Then why do you assume and unfamiliarity with Unix? It's not that complicated. Surely you know that I was in sciences when you were still learning your abcs.

I took two history courses. Next to my philosophy courses, some of the easiest courses one could take at school and everyone knew it. I went to about one class, skim-read the textbook and then wrote my essay exams relying on my bull****ting ability from my philosophy courses and passed with flying colours.

At what point were computers required?

Go take a theoretical computer science course using a computer. I dare you.

I'm aware of the maths involved. I was in physics, remember. We do the real science and we throw you folks a bone once in awhile.

Meanwhile, go turn in a history paper without using a computer.

Done. I had to defend my thesis in an hour lecture as well. It's just a different way of presenting your case. You should be able to do it without the computer at all because all the ideas are up there in your head.

As I said, you didn't go to a real school. You went to a charity school in the middle of nowhere that obviously had no educational value, as you know nothing.

Really. At least I can work anywheres, computers or no. Not everyone is dependent on your computer like you are Asher.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Sure you can. My profs had no problem so long as it was legible. They didn't care.

We've already established that farmhouse schools do not count in this context.

Wow, you know nothing about research. I could use google, or I could just learn my way around the library. The catalogue system is not that complicated. If you know how it is organised you can find whatever book you want and you don't have to look it up on a computer.

Of course that requires an education and some experience working with catalogues, but I guess a computer is superior.

I know very well how to use a library, but the simple fact is you can't always get what you are looking for. There's limited numbers of copies, there's limited storage space, there's limited money. I tried to do some research for an economics paper in my school's 14-story main library tower and it was a nightmare. All of the relevant books were checked out and I had to make due with half-assed books barely relevant.

I'm not sure you can comprehend the power of Google Scholar in locating books you can then get from your library, or access it online.

Then why do you assume and unfamiliarity with Unix? It's not that complicated. Surely you know that I was in sciences when you were still learning your abcs.

How old are you? You're not much older than me, but you're many times more stupid. I assume unfamiliarity with Unix because you lack familiarity with it. I don't care what you say, you are too stupid to use Unix.

I would ask you quick questions right now but you'd just google them and pretend you knew them, so that's pointless.

Which Unix did you use? Which window environment?

At what point were computers required?

Typing the essay and emailing it to the prof?

I'm aware of the maths involved. I was in physics, remember. We do the real science and we throw you folks a bone once in awhile.

Heh. You were in physics for one year, and dropped out to do something easier. Don't pretend to even think you've got the same math knowledge of somebody who took four years of pure and applied mathematics because you took the introductory physics courses.

Really. At least I can work anywheres, computers or no. Not everyone is dependent on your computer like you are Asher.

In the real world at a real school, they are. You are out of touch with reality, as usual.