LordShiva and DaShi's homework: Teh Disadvantages of Elite Education

[Ben Kenobi]

How is it an own goal considering I never had an Elite Education

It's an own goal because you are still willing to look down on other schools. Even though you aren't the elite, you still take their attitude which is absolutely hilarious.

and I don't frown upon the tradeskills? I don't even have a problem with artists -- I love music and many forms of art.

Then why the issue with history? In all schemes of classical education history is considered one of the most important parts.

I do have a problem with many people who go to schools -- elite or otherwise -- to get stupid degrees they never use.

And yet you say we should build minds not careers? Isn't the whole point of 'stupid' degrees that you never use, is that they enlighten and educate the student? If you sincerely believe that education is the primary motive, then the utilitarian measure of 'useful' never comes into play.

Take you, for instance. What's your degree in, again? Complete waste of taxpayers' money, and don't even try to tell me otherwise.

We need historians along with painters too.

[Wiglaf]

Originally posted by Asher

A real discussion is nice too, if someone wants to have it. No one is contesting it so far though, or at least contesting it seriously.

(And the University of Washington in St Louis actually is known very well in computer science circles, I know it's a good school. Wiglaf is one smart cookie [perhaps gingerbread] and that speaks volumes. )

:hug :wub:

[Jonny]

Originally posted by Asher
Having a University of Washington in St Louis. It's just all kinds of ****ed up.

It's a pain having to explain it to people who've never heard of it...

Me: I go to Washington University...
Them: Oh, that's in Seattle, right?
Me: No, actually it's in...
Them: Of course, it's in DC.
Me: St. Louis, actually.
Them: Why does the University of Washington have a branch in Saint Louis?
Me:

They should change it back to its original name. Or naming it after me works too. Course, they'd probably just name it Danforth, just like everything else is being renamed now...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
It's an own goal because you are still willing to look down on other schools. Even though you aren't the elite, you still take their attitude which is absolutely hilarious.

I look down on certain schools only if certain people I know to be remarkably stupid managed to get a degree there.

Then why the issue with history? In all schemes of classical education history is considered one of the most important parts.

I have a very hard time understanding why we need people using tax dollars to simply memorize what happened hundreds of years ago. History is important and we should all be taught history to some extent (in primary and secondary schools), but I've never met a single person who studied History who then goes and actually uses that degree in any meaningful way. The vast majority of them become tutors for people too dumb to find a better tutor, or set up computer assembly shops. I think History is one of the most wasteful public university disciplines because many people take that course, and the public subsidy, to study something just because they find it interesting. Then they go and do something completely different.

You can do that if you wish at a private school, I just don't want to pay for it.

And yet you say we should build minds not careers? Isn't the whole point of 'stupid' degrees that you never use, is that they enlighten and educate the student? If you sincerely believe that education is the primary motive, then the utilitarian measure of 'useful' never comes into play.

You must've missed the part where you successfully argued that studying history in university means you are both enlightened and someone with a competent "mind". I don't think history in university enlightens anyone in any meaningful matter that they couldn't get simply by going to a public library or even wikipedia today.

We need historians along with painters too.

Do we need our painters all educated with a BA in Painting?

You raised an excellent point, but one you are oblivious to and is counter to your position. History, like painting, is not something that needs to be taught at a university level.

[Wiglaf]

The author can't speak with his plumber, and blames Yale for that. Even though I bet he's never interacted with people in lower economic "classes" before or after college. And he probably went to Yale in part to avoid those people. Then at the end he says liberal arts colleges are the way to go. Because those guys at Williams sure can speak to plumbers?

I'm pretty sure the whole sense that God loves him more than other people is more his fault and less his college's. Or maybe his whole article is true as far as it applies to graduate students.

He complains that he can't talk to the plumber, but then frets that undergrads are too practical and don't like to study "Bildung" (which, when I think about it, is the absolute perfect word for "building up the soul." I'm using this word more often).

He gives no reason to think schools admit people only for their analytical intelligence. They probably should, but they don't. There are all sorts of non Asians, Olympians, writers, activists, idiots at all these schools.

He thinks people at Cleveland State don't get second chances. I'd imagine Cleveland State is a second chance for a lot of people. And is he actually saying that people at Cleveland State adhere to deadlines more rigorously than Yale students? I'd take that ****ing bet.

In conclusion forthwith I can't believe this closet case thinks there are "few out lesbians and no gender queers" on college campuses. There are entire clubs for such people. The writer must be an activist. His complaint seems to be mostly about dress. Nobody dresses like a hippie anymore. But that has to do with the evolving fashion sense of the last forty years, not class. You know what would happen if you dressed like "hippies or punks or art-school types" at Cleveland State University? You'd get the **** kicked out of you, is what.

Indeed in fact whereforth, the author ultimately seems to be disgruntled with modern life. He doesn't like that academics has become a systematic, gradual, efficient process. You can't sit around your whole life and study poetry to find your Bildung. You can't write unsupported Big Idea papers and have them taken as Gospel. And you have to in some way try to contribute to the economy and society around you, including plumbers.

I wonder how the plumber would react if he knew somebody wrote an entire essay about the two minutes before he fixed some idiot's toilet.

This is a crap article. Nothing Bildung about it.

[Arrian]

Asher,

Re: history...

It's true, most of us with History degrees don't use the degree directly. A few do, by becoming teaches/professors, but most of us end up in the corporate world somewhere, using the skills we picked up (critical thinking, writing, etc) somehow. That is the case w/me.

I did major in History b/c I found it interesting, with little to no consideration for how useful it would be in my life (hell, I switched over from Econ). Happily, I found a niche job that pays well and uses those skills I have. :shrug:

-Arrian

[Arrian]

First thought:

English professor, right? Mad about the trend he sees toward "vocational training." He thinks a more tradition liberal arts education (with a liberal dose of English lit classes) is better. Makes sense, given what he does.

How does English lit class equip you to have a meaningful conversation with the plumber, btw?

-Arrian

[Lorizael]

Plumbers should be robots. We shouldn't have to talk to them anymore.

[aneeshm]

Asher - just for reference, how have you been educated? I'm interested for two reasons - because I'm in the field, and I want to know how your experience was.



As for the article - I agree almost totally with it. Since the elite universities and institutes started becoming "vocational training for the elite", they have lost their sheen and purpose.

Once upon a time, an education in the arts/humanities was really, really hard. Sometimes even harder than in the sciences, because you had to juggle not only the rigorous parts of your curriculum (the analytic parts of philosophy, to take an example), but also the subjective ones. Your output had to be not only correct but also elegant.

And this wasn't meant to be vocational training, it was meant for people who were either already rich or were willing to live a humble life to pursue what they loved, because they wanted either the power (this isn't really the right word, but I can't find another) or the perspective (or both) that this education could give them. Taxpayer money should never have been allocated for this.

I remember reading in a book about Islamic education that nowadays, the elite Madarsas' (Qum, Al-Azhar, Deoband, and the like) primary product is people who are capable only of teaching in Madarsas. It seems this is what is happening to the humanities/arts in our system now. It's sad, really, that they've gone so much out of touch with the mainstream of public life. Maybe this is why the quality of popular culture has dropped so much in the last half a century?

Maybe the error lay in reducing the difficulty of the arts/humanities courses. It probably let the riff-raff along with the really good people. And all it takes is one bad apple......

[Asher]

Asher - just for reference, how have you been educated? I'm interested for two reasons - because I'm in the field, and I want to know how your experience was.

I went to my local public university with much of the education paid for by scholarships.

[Starchild]

Why was he trying to talk to the help in the first place?

[Asher]

Obviously he found him cute.

[Starchild]

You don't make small talk with the help or with the shags beyond 'fix that' or 'fancy a ****?'

[GePap]

Originally posted by Arrian
First thought:

English professor, right? Mad about the trend he sees toward "vocational training." He thinks a more tradition liberal arts education (with a liberal dose of English lit classes) is better. Makes sense, given what he does.

How does English lit class equip you to have a meaningful conversation with the plumber, btw?

-Arrian

The idea is that a University should try to give its students the ability to think openly. An open thinker is able to recognize the merit inherent in a plumber, or at least be curious about the plumber's craft and their methods. Having either of these skills would allow one to try to connect with someone of a different class either on a personal level (get to know why he chose to be a plumber, what does he thinks about, well, anything) or on a professional level (what are you doing, so how does Y or Y work?). According to the article, your typical Elite University Student would think themselves too good to speak to the "help" and would also not really care exactly how their plumbing worked. As smart as they are, as technically proficient as they might be in finance, law, medicine, or say Science or Computers, they can't understand or see the possible value of other skill sets.

There is nothing inherent in an English degree that would bring these skills (and the author would probably say that most of his Enligh students were looking to either become academics or get jobs in publishing or journalism), but that is the point, that there is an overarching aim of higher education that is increasingly ignored by elite universities.

[Arrian]

The idea is that a University should try to give its students the ability to think openly.

Sure. My small liberal arts college made that attempt. I'd like to think that in my case it largely succeeded. Plus, I can have an ok conversation with hired help. Yay me, or something.

Still, the author of this article rants on at length about not being able to talk to the plumber. He could care about the plumber. He could find worth in the plumber. But he would still have no ****ing idea what to say to the guy (or gal), unless he had some experience with interacting with (non-elite, I guess) people.

According to the article, your typical Elite University Student would think themselves too good to speak to the "help"

To the extent that this is a fair assessment of Ivy League/Elite schools... ok, I can't disagree. That be bad.

-Arrian