LordShiva and DaShi's homework: Teh Disadvantages of Elite Education

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Cause we don't use slide rules no more. Duh.

Computers = Better slide rules.

If God were real, you wouldn't be like this. You'd be useful.

Just think about that for a bit.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I'm more of one then you.

From everything I've observed, you actually don't know any more physics than I do. You haven't shown any competence at all beyond basic mechanics, E&M, maybe some intro special relativity. Last time KH tried to explain GR to you I saw your head 'asplode.

I'd have to agree with this if it was KH who was saying it but sorry Kuci, you ain't KH.

I don't have to be KH to despair at your lack of intellect.

I suppose you'll say next that Engineering doesn't rely on physics at all.

Is that why all your computers still fill a room?

Computer science doesn't depend on physical computers. The physics of semiconductors has absolutely NOTHING to do with it.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm sure it takes you ages to do a lot of things most people have no trouble with.

Well I'm sure I can actually like read an actual book faster then you.

This is so hilarious Asher.

Not sure what Waterloo has to do with this. But while we're on the subject of physicists and Canadian schools, why isn't Stephen Hawking considering going to UBC if it's better than Waterloo?

Obviously that makes Waterloo better then Cambridge where he came from.

I'll use an analogy that you can understand. It's like Sundin coming to the Canucks rather then Calgary. Just because the Canucks are willing to pony up the dough, doesn't make them the better team.

Krazyhorse says otherwise, and I'll take his word over someone who dropped out of physics.

Where did KH say otherwise? News to me. Go ask Jon then if KH is no longer around. Computer science is very useful to physicists because it makes them more efficient then they were previously. It's a better slide rule.

Try functioning a day in modern society without using a computer in some way.

Wow, ok. Not hard. Lets see.

I get up get dressed have a shower, eat a quick breakfast go to work.

Walk to the office work for 8 hours, come home.

Eat dinner, then go out for a walk again or a swim. Come home, read a book. Day over.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Obviously that makes Waterloo better then Cambridge where he came from.

I'll use an analogy that you can understand. It's like Sundin coming to the Canucks rather then Calgary. Just because the Canucks are willing to pony up the dough, doesn't make them the better team.

Waterloo isn't offering him a big salary, they're offering him talented colleagues and a budget to actually do the research he needs to do.

It's more like Hossa deciding to play for Detroit for $7M because it's a winning team even though other teams threw $100M at him.

Where did KH say otherwise? News to me. Go ask Jon then if KH is no longer around. Computer science is very useful to physicists because it makes them more efficient then they were previously. It's a better slide rule.

It doesn't just make them more efficient, it permits new models and theories to be tested. It expands the world of physics, it's not just a calculation aid.

Wow, ok. Not hard. Lets see.

I get up

How do you get up at a specific time?

get dressed have a shower

The water system in every modern city is heavily computerized.

, eat a quick breakfast go to work.

How do you eat breakfast?
Even your fridge has a computer chip in it today.
etc.

They're pervasive to the point that you don't even know it. I know it's possible to live without computers, but doing so makes you Amish...

[Ben Kenobi]

From everything I've observed, you actually don't know any more physics than I do. You haven't shown any competence at all beyond basic mechanics, E&M, maybe some intro special relativity. Last time KH tried to explain GR to you I saw your head 'asplode.

Not many physics threads here on poly to go by.

I asked KH a very specific question because I was curious as to the answer.

Kuci, I like you but I wouldn't dare try to assess your competency here on Poly, because honestly I wouldn't know exactly what you have and have not done.

If you are interested in a more comprehensive discussion of physics, I'd be glad to do it here on Poly but I don't think this thread is the time or the place.

Yes, it's true I left after two years of Honours physics, but I don't see why that means I know absolutely nothing about the topic whatsoever, as opposed to two CS majors.

Computer science doesn't depend on physical computers. The physics of semiconductors has absolutely NOTHING to do with it.

It has everything to do with it. The whole concept of integrated circuits, etc. Tell me, I hope you prefer modern programming languages to machine language. That the machines have the capability to process more complex things has a huge effect on programming.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

It has everything to do with it. The whole concept of integrated circuits, etc. Tell me, I hope you prefer modern programming languages to machine language. That the machines have the capability to process more complex things has a huge effect on programming.

Computers pre-date the integrated circuit. They even predate vacuum tubes. Computers are a mathematical construct and the integrated circuit is just one way to implement them.

If you took real CS courses, you'd know this.

[Ben Kenobi]

Waterloo isn't offering him a big salary, they're offering him talented colleagues and a budget to actually do the research he needs to do.

Then why is he leaving Cambridge? Obviously it's because Waterloo is willing to spend more to land him then Cambridge is to keep him. If Cambridge laid the same amount of money, do you think he'd be considering Waterloo?

Don't get me wrong, Waterloo is a fine university. I don't think they are as good as UBC overall in terms of comprehensiveness.

It doesn't just make them more efficient, it permits new models and theories to be tested. It expands the world of physics, it's not just a calculation aid.

It's no different then adaptive optics are to astronomy. They are able to work with more complicated models because they don't have to work out the maths step by step.

I agree they are a tremendous tool, but in terms of influencing the questions that can be asked, I don't see that at all. I think the biggest advance right now is with protein folding. That's a synthesis of physics to chemistry and biology, because you are trying to do the number crunching with physics to a much higher level then previous, and to use it to explain how these biological systems work on a chemical basis.

How do you get up at a specific time?

Sun comes up.

The water system in every modern city is heavily computerized.

I have a well.

How do you eat breakfast?

I have the leftover pizza from tonight.

They're pervasive to the point that you don't even know it. I know it's possible to live without computers, but doing so makes you Amish...

It's not really all that hard. I like computers and I use them all the time. I've gotten by without them for 3 months, and it wasn't that difficult, and I grew up without them at all until I was 14.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
It has everything to do with it. The whole concept of integrated circuits, etc. Tell me, I hope you prefer modern programming languages to machine language. That the machines have the capability to process more complex things has a huge effect on programming.

1) Integrated circuits have nothing to do with actual CS.

2) Modern programming languages are further removed from ICs than assembly. More proof that YOU HAVE NO CLUE.

3) The most powerful computer a compsci can deal with is completely nonphysical. It's called a Turing machine and it doesn't exist.

[Ben Kenobi]

Computers pre-date the integrated circuit. They even predate vacuum tubes. Computers are a mathematical construct and the integrated circuit is just one way to implement them.

If you took real CS courses, you'd know this.

Computers have been the ***** of physicists for a long time now.

Yep, I do know that and the algorithms, which is the real term have been around as long as there were physicists to ask questions that required a mathematical solution.

You could even call the ptolemaic system a computer, because it was a rigid model that in operation could make very fine calculations regarding planetary movements.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Computers have been the ***** of physicists for a long time now.

Yep, I do know that and the algorithms, which is the real term have been around as long as there were physicists to ask questions that required a mathematical solution.

Have you been reading my goddamn posts? Computer scientists haven't taken serious inspiration from physicists since the army asked them to build artillery tables. The vast majority comes from other fields, or within CS itself.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Then why is he leaving Cambridge? Obviously it's because Waterloo is willing to spend more to land him then Cambridge is to keep him. If Cambridge laid the same amount of money, do you think he'd be considering Waterloo?

Not sure why this is hard for you to understand.

Hawking isn't in this for the salary. The problem is he's not getting the funding from the government he needs from the UK -- he's been protesting this for a while. He will get that at Waterloo. Additionally, his closest colleague is now the head of the physics research entity at Waterloo and has personally invited him.

This isn't Hawking making a cash grab, it's him going to the place where he feels he can make the most progress with his research. He's not an all-star money-grubbing athlete, he's a pure academic.

From the news story:

Turok is leaving Cambridge after failing to persuade university authorities, research councils and sponsors to spend $40 million to expand its Centre for Theoretical Cosmology, which he heads, into a Hawking Institute.

By comparison, Waterloo's Perimeter Institute has about $600 million in funding.

Don't get me wrong, Waterloo is a fine university. I don't think they are as good as UBC overall in terms of comprehensiveness.

I've no idea what the hell comprehensiveness is. I know they completely kick UBC's ass in computer science, engineering, physics, and math. I don't care if UBC teaches history better somehow, which is a funny concept to me...

It's not really all that hard. I like computers and I use them all the time. I've gotten by without them for 3 months, and it wasn't that difficult, and I grew up without them at all until I was 14.

I'm beginning to feel like you've never been exposed to the world til you were 14, which explains why you've got the understanding of your surroundings comparable to the level of a 2 year old.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Computers have been the ***** of physicists for a long time now.

Yep, I do know that and the algorithms, which is the real term have been around as long as there were physicists to ask questions that required a mathematical solution.

You know THE algorithms?

Holy ****, are you ever lost here.

[Ben Kenobi]

1) Integrated circuits have nothing to do with actual CS.

They have an effect on how computer programmers think and what languages they choose to use.

2) Modern programming languages are further removed from ICs than assembly. More proof that YOU HAVE NO CLUE.

The point was that faster and more refined computers have greater capacity in terms of programming languages which can be used.

3) The most powerful computer a compsci can deal with is completely nonphysical. It's called a Turing machine and it doesn't exist.

True, but what's the functional difference between a Turing machine and any computer given infinite time?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
They have an effect on how computer programmers think and what languages they choose to use.

No, they do not.

The point was that faster and more refined computers have greater capacity in terms of programming languages which can be used.

Which is a completely invalid point. It's actually fundamentally a confusing point since no matter how I try to frame it, it makes no sense. You seem to have tied the programming language to the integrated circuit, which is truly baffling.

I'll give you a hint. Have you heard of FORTRAN? It predates the integrated circuit. It's still used today, including on integrated circuits.

You need to decouple the two concepts in your head, it's just wrong.

True, but what's the functional difference between a Turing machine and any computer given infinite time?

That is a question that can be answered by taking a theoretical computing course. Remember, this is an example of one of many courses in CS that doesn't use computers.

[Ben Kenobi]

Have you been reading my goddamn posts? Computer scientists haven't taken serious inspiration from physicists since the army asked them to build artillery tables. The vast majority comes from other fields, or within CS itself.

Is that why quantum computing is so sought after? Come off it Kuci. Why would compsci take inspiration all the way up to the second world war, and then suddenly stop taking inspiration at all?