Nicolai, JM and such, I have an honest question.

[Ecthy]

Because some part of a man-written book says "teh gaydom iz punishment" you think that homosexualty in western society is a punishment for our sinful world? Punishment on gays or punishment on mankind in general?

[Jon Miller]

One of the issues that religion has to explain is why, if God is good, that things like blindness... illness... etc happen. One of the ways, and the most authoritative in most of Christianity, we have of determining these things is from the Bible. Many of us, Christians especially, read and study it to learn about some of these deeper questions... which aren't directly addressed by science at all. Other people address them in relation to other religions, and many philosophers and theologians have spent their lives thinking, writing, and discussing about such topics.

We all face issues relating to living in a sinful world. Of course, in the thought I layed out homosexuality would be an issue facing the homosexual, although like many other issues, it effects those around as well.

There is always the option of just throwing out something. This isn't a good option for people who beleive in a Christian God, as the basis for beleif in Him is in the Bible. The Bible is also how we can understand His will, and while there are other ways, they are a lot more questionable than scripture (is the person who claimed to find some tablets making it all up? is the tradition that is based upon scripture from 1600 years ago more true than the scripture?).

Jon Miller

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Uh, no.

The Church teaches that homosexuality is objectively disordered. Fornication is something else entirely. If we bought what you were saying then the Catholic church ought to permit gay marriage, since the two are comparable.

Find a source on the objectively disordered bit. That's not how I understand it at all.

The way I heard it (from my priest and others) the church sees all sex for pleasure that is detached from procreation as a sin. So what the others have said, pre-marital sex is in the same category with homosexual sex. But so is sex between married couples who use birth control.

So there is nothing exceptional about homosexuals. They are sinners just like the rest of us.

[Jon Miller]

Note that I am not arguing against science. Science explains why illness, disasters, etc happen in this universe . It doesn't (and doesn't seem like it will ever be able to) address why we live in this universe, or why the universe exists in this way.

Even the mathematics which allows people to discuss other universes/etc doesn't have to exist/be true outside of our (Meta)universe.

Jon Miller

[Straybow]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Thanks (was too lazy to look it up)

This passage is interesting, btw.
Homosexuality is not described as a sin overhere, but as a punishment.
People became homosexual or started to perform homosexual acts, as a punishment of God.....

No, rather that when man gives up seeking God, God permits man to sink to the depths of depravity, and even allows them to justify it in their own minds. He "gives them over," that is, removes any pressure of conviction and allows sin to run its course.

[Ben Kenobi]

Ozzy:

Find a source on the objectively disordered bit. That's not how I understand it at all.

Catechism of the Catholic church.

Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."

They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

https://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

The way I heard it (from my priest and others) the church sees all sex for pleasure that is detached from procreation as a sin. So what the others have said, pre-marital sex is in the same category with homosexual sex. But so is sex between married couples who use birth control.

Yes, all of these are contrary to what Catholics believe is the purpose of sex, they are similar in certain ways to each other.

So there is nothing exceptional about homosexuals. They are sinners just like the rest of us.

Indeed, but the catechism is explicit that homosexuality is objectively disordered. There can be a legitimate purpose for sex between a man and a woman in marriage, that is what is meant by sexual complementarity.

[Ben Kenobi]

So what's the rule here. Do what the old testament tells you, unless Jesus tells you otherwise? But you could also use your head. Does the old testament even explain to you why eating porc is bad for you? If so, are these reasons valid today.

This is why we are Christians and not Jews. Jesus is our first authority on the commands of God because he is God and he is the son of God.

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by CivNation
Gays are devil offspring.

Originally posted by Ming
Shut up! You're banned again.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

https://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm

How many websites are there with the Vatican's domain suffix? I want one

www.shi.va

[Robert]

If we talk about commandments and laws, all christians will say different stuff.

I say that we have no written scripture or commandment to guide us in this life, but only the Holy Spirit. Ben Kenobi and Jon Miller think different.
But what's most important is that Jesus Christ is our savior, that's why I consider both Ben and Jon to be my fellow christians, and they most probably consider me to be like that as well.

Christians can have differences of opinions. Paul clearly states that. It's not as if we all must agree on everything.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Straybow

Originally posted by CyberShy
Thanks (was too lazy to look it up)

This passage is interesting, btw.
Homosexuality is not described as a sin overhere, but as a punishment.
People became homosexual or started to perform homosexual acts, as a punishment of God.....

No, rather that when man gives up seeking God, God permits man to sink to the depths of depravity, and even allows them to justify it in their own minds. He "gives them over," that is, removes any pressure of conviction and allows sin to run its course.

This doesn't fit with what we are told in the Bible about people being born blind, for example.

JM

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by CyberShy
If we talk about commandments and laws, all christians will say different stuff.

I say that we have no written scripture or commandment to guide us in this life, but only the Holy Spirit. Ben Kenobi and Jon Miller think different.
But what's most important is that Jesus Christ is our savior, that's why I consider both Ben and Jon to be my fellow christians, and they most probably consider me to be like that as well.

Christians can have differences of opinions. Paul clearly states that. It's not as if we all must agree on everything.

You know this is the biggest problem I have with Christianity. You guys might really disagree but still not start sh!tting on each other which makes this kind of threads rather boring really.

[Jon Miller]

I know ones who do

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

But what's most important is that Jesus Christ is our savior, that's why I consider both Ben and Jon to be my fellow christians, and they most probably consider me to be like that as well.

Brothers and Sisters.

Truthfully that is how I see all of you, even if we disagree on a few things. I think part of it is having seen the other side of things.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Ecthy
You know this is the biggest problem I have with Christianity. You guys might really disagree but still not start sh!tting on each other

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30-years%27_War