The Confederate Flag and NASCAR

[Mrs. Tuberski]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Bosh

Correct, it is also possible that people flying the Confederate flag are idiots who are completely ignorant of its historical significance.

I appreciate it when idiots and racists make it so easy for me to identify them, it makes things much more convenient for me. [/QUOTE

Once again the historical signifcance is part of an era u nor i belonged to for one! and second was used to show the sides of a civil war. Originally the flag had nothing to do with what u call racism, it flew to show who was who in a war and what side they were on. The ignorance came after the white power movement brought out of another country, that had nothing to do with our civil war which this flag was created for.

[SlowwHand]

They think the war was strictly a race deal.

I've told MrFun many times that only 5% of the South had slaves; and more than that , more slaves were American Indians who were more readily available and free, than Blacks.
He won't listen to me.

The plain fact is, Lincoln was the all-time politician, and all that implies.

[Dr Strangelove]

This past week the "Sons of the Confederacy" issued a criticism of Senator George Allen for his use of the Stars and Bars in the past. They admonished him that he should be more aware that the Confederate battle flag is hurtful to black people.

No, I'm not making that up. It was reported in a local newspaper.

Surely this is a sign that the end times are near.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
They think the war was strictly a race deal.

I've told MrFun many times that only 5% of the South had slaves; and more than that , more slaves were American Indians who were more readily available and free, than Blacks.
He won't listen to me.

The plain fact is, Lincoln was the all-time politician, and all that implies.

It was closer to 25%, Sloww. Remember that at the time of the Civil War about one-quarter of the South's population was black, most of whom were slaves. Most slave owning families only owned a few, but remember also that most American families at that time were very big. Nine million whites probably breaks down to about 1.5 million white families owning 3 million blacks. Furthermore you should consider that a man with a family farm owning just a few blacks would be more than eager to hire them out at times when there was less work to be done on his farm, and non-farmers who had inherited slaves often hired theirs out, so the vested interest in keeping blacks in slavery estended beyond those who owned them.

Very few Indians were ever impressed into slavery by the colonists or early Americans. Attempts to do so were made both in the South and in Massachussetts, generally with the result of the Indian running away back to his people. There was also a lot of violent resistence to enslavement on the part of Native Americans. Some tribes though adopted the practice of slavery. There were also instances of Indians marrying blacks, though this was more common after the Civil War.

[Patroklos]

Patroklos and Slowwy -- if the Confederate flag's history has nothing to do with racism then why don't Southern blacks show the same pride in their region by proudly displaying the Confederate flag?

Did I say that? I said it racism/slavery was not the sole motivation of the Confederacy, not even the primary (especially for most who fought the war). You can't say that slavery was the sole motivation when the vast majority of the troops on both sides didn't five two ****s or a **** about it.

As for the black southerners not displaying it, I have no problem understanding that it mean something different to them, especially with people like you telling them what it has to mean. If they don't agree with you obviously they are uncle toms.

to say that Southern Americans founded the Confederacy on the same principles as the 18th century founders is ridiculous.

Again, did anyone say that? I find it the height of selective understanding that you can go through all the rhetoric and minutia of the debate over secession from 1850 onward and ignore everything but anything related to slavery.

Apparently you don't have that problem with the rhetoric of 1776 to the constitution.

Correct, it is also possible that people flying the Confederate flag are idiots who are completely ignorant of its historical significance.

I find it funny to watch political opportunists selectively cull the majority of the historical significance of the flag to suit their stereotyping bigotry more completely.

It really is quite interesting - Americans who say they are patriotic, stand up for liberty, etc etc etc and then run off and wrap themselves in the Confederate flag, the flag of a nation that was essentially the antithesis of this.

Not at all, just as it is not at all unpatriotic in the UK for Scots to fly the Scottish banner after they rebelled, what, a hundred times? Do Scots raise hell when they see the Union Jack after being oppressed under it and its English predecessors for 1000 years? Hell the St. George (I think that’s it) cross being included in the Union Jack is paramount to replacing the 50 stars with the stars and bars!

[chequita guevara]

Mr Funning

These were the only flags of the Confederate States of America

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The Bonnie Blue

When Florida was returned to the Spanish Empire, West Florida rebelled and proclaimed itself the Republic of West Florida. Soon after it was annexed by the United States and incorporated into Lousianna, Mississippi, and Alabama. When the Confederacy formed, they had no flag for the first three and a half weeks, so this flag was used by default in those three states, and was used throughout the war.

The Stars and Bars

This was the first national flag (with various modifications for when states joined the Confederacy--including some that had stars for regions they hoped to conquer). This flag was abandoned because it resembed the Union flag too closely.

The Stainless Banner

This flag was abandoned because it was too easily mistaken as a flag of surrender due to the large white field. It was modified with a large red bar for the final version of the Confederate Flag.

3rd Banner

[chequita guevara]

This flag was NOT flown by the Confederacy!!!!



This flag is the flag of the Confederate veterans associations, which was adopted by the Kinghts of the Ku Klux Klan, and for that reason flown by Southern States starting in the 1950s to protest desegregation!!!!!

You dumb rednecks don't even know your own heritage, so how can you claim its heritage not hate? It's a heritage of hate.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
They think the war was strictly a race deal.

I've told MrFun many times that only 5% of the South had slaves;

But it was the 5% of the South that controled everything.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski
Once again the historical signifcance is part of an era u nor i belonged to for one! and second was used to show the sides of a civil war. Originally the flag had nothing to do with what u call racism, it flew to show who was who in a war and what side they were on. The ignorance came after the white power movement brought out of another country, that had nothing to do with our civil war which this flag was created for.

You are so wrong it's hysterical. The South never flew that flag until the 1950s. They flew it to protest desegregation and to declare their support for "white power forever." They flew flags that had similarities, but you never see those flags sported by anyone claiming their "rebel" heritage. As for where the white power movement originated, I can assure you it is homegrown. We did not import it from anywhere, and in fact, other countries modeled their laws on ours.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Patroklos
I am so glad Tass and Che as mind readers and can instantly tell the internal motivations of millions of people on a whim. Thanks for telling me what I was thinking guys, as I guess you are a better judge than me!

And Che, Tass, Mr Fun automatically lose for bringing up Nazis, even if it was in a completely inappropriate comparison.

You are so ignorant I'm surprised you can bear to show your face.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Do Scots raise hell when they see the Union Jack after being oppressed under it and its English predecessors for 1000 years? Hell the St. George (I think that’s it) cross being included in the Union Jack is paramount to replacing the 50 stars with the stars and bars!

Oppressed Scots for a thousand years.

[SlowwHand]

Whatever. You bigots can throw around comments and beliefs about the whole of the South being bigots all you want. I've finally, after many years, decided screw it.
You're not worth my time. Revel in your misguided beliefs 150 years or so after the damn event.

[PLATO]

I am absolutely appalled at the ignorance of the South that exists here. Several of those posting are showing themselves to be nothing short of idiots...and prejudiced ones at that.

SlowwHand, your fight is valiant and true, but a lost cause. It would take at least a small bit of reasonableness on the part of some here to look beyond their bigoted natures... and the posts made here indicate that is unlikely.

[SlowwHand]

No, **** them. Bunch of ****ing know-it-alls.

[Eroberer]

Sloww, that's not a bad position to take. I admire your restraint. I think fortunately, for my own sake, I never really took these guys seriously to begin with. Starting off by saying all NASCAR fans are racists is a bit too much of a leap to bait me.

As for the Confederate flag: that was the BATTLE FLAG. Trust me, many southerners know about the Bonnie Blue, and the "Stars and Bars" flag that looks so much like the original US flag. Now, here's a quote from the humble ol' Wikipedia entry for the search, "Confederate flag." Believe it or not, this is basically the story that you'll get from most Southerners, but we already know you're not going to ask any of them and find out for yourselves.

The Battle Flag


The battle flag of the Confederacy is square, of various sizes for the different branches of the service: 48 inches square for the infantry, 36 inches for the artillery, and 30 inches for the cavalry. It was used in battle from November 1861 to the fall of the Confederacy. The blue color on the Saltire in the battle flag was navy blue, as opposed to the much lighter blue of the Naval Jack. The Stars and Bars were too easily confused in the smoke of battle with the Stars and Stripes, resulting in very real military mistakes. To remedy this, General P.G.T. Beauregard of the Army of Virginia and others sought a better design and Beauregard was the first to adopt the flag from the design of William Porcher Miles (see below). Miles' rectangular design was sized down to a square to aid folding and carrying in battle.

The flag is also properly known as the flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.

This flag proved so popular, that it became basis for the Second National flag of the Confederacy (see above). Some prefer the square proportions of this flag over Miles' original rectangle as more sonorous and more distinct.

As you can read in the Wikipedia entry, the Battle flag was flown for two years before the Stars and Bars was retired.