The god of the old testament has . . . . issues

[Spiffor]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The god of the old testament has . . . . issues

Originally posted by Bosh
Of course I could've just ignored the parts of the that offend my personal sensibilities, but once you start watering down a religion that much it gets rather pointless and would be more me making god in my own image than anything else...

Or you could convert to a form of Christianty that takes God's *******ness into account (instead of simply trying to hide it), and which has a serious creed about why God has changed since then, about the idea that by joining said religion, you really worship a God of goodness, with all the evil parts removed.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by loinburger
In all honesty, I've never met an observant Jew. The ones I've met all ate ham-and-cheese sandwiches.

They're the best kind

[Barnabas]

Why is it that it is always christians and not jews who feel the need to defend the old testament jew?
Instead of saying, I dont ****ing carem go ask a Rabbi.

Atheists, or non christians always go and ask christians for the explanation of ridiculous dietary laws which Jesus pretty much said were useless BS.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
May I ask why? While Job's "solution" to theodicy sucks, it's certainly not the most offensive part of the Wholly Babble ...

Cuz God was a dick to Job purely to prove a point to a 3rd party. If he's willing to deliberatly dick over his most faithful worshipper simply to win a bet, he's no god wothery of worship. . . . and I hadn't gotten to the part about Elisha siccing the bears on those 42 kids.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
Why is it that it is always christians and not jews who feel the need to defend the old testament jew?
Instead of saying, I dont ****ing carem go ask a Rabbi.

Atheists, or non christians always go and ask christians for the explanation of ridiculous dietary laws which Jesus pretty much said were useless BS.

My point exactly.

[aneeshm]

The irony of the whole thing is that I started reading the bible because Christian missionaries in India are always quick to criticise the gods of India , and they always say that their god is superior . Being interested , I started reading , and it appears that the missionaries were exaggerating ( to put it mildly ) .

[Proteus_MST]

Yes,
during my childhood I also assumed that I was serving a god who is on the side of mankind.

After reading parts of the OT (which I did to see how christian fundamentalists think ) I came to the conclusion that the god described there is only on his own side and just uses the humans as tools, among other reasons, just to gain influence in the world and diminish the influence of other gods (yep, sound really like populous or black and white ) and that it would be rather my duty to be against such a god, than serving him.
(But at this time I had already developed a belief that´s rather unitarian universalist, so it didn´t cause any problems for my own faith )

[Flip McWho]

You mention frogs, so let's take the situation with Moses and the Hebrews in Egypt. God talked to Moses. Moses, speaking for God, asked Pharaoh to please let the Hebrews free. Moses says no. Moses, acting with God's power, performs signs to impress Pharaoh. He is not impressed. Simply asking Pharaoh "pretty, please" wasn't going to work because Pharaoh had a strong economic interests in keeping the Hebrews as slaves.

Ummm
Exodus 7:3
As for me, I shall let Phar'aoh's heart become obstinate, and I shall certainly multiply my signs and my miracles in the land of Eqypt.

Then the plagues follow. Eqypt was an example of a 'benevolent' Gods power.

[Ben Kenobi]

But Job was a servant of God. Satan tells God that Job is only a servant of God because he isn't suffering. So we have to be servants of God even though he allows Satan to cause us suffering. But why does he allow Satan to cause us suffering? The suffering seems to have no ryme or reason. Why isn't God just satisfied that we are his servants without the suffering involved?

Not quite. Job is a righteous man, so Satan says that if you strip away all the blessings that God provides, that Job will curse God. So God, knowing Job, takes Satan up on that challenge.

And don't forget the end of the book, where God restores to Job many times over what Satan had been permitted to take away from him. God wants to test everyone to see where their hearts truly lie.

Secondly we are told that our works will be tested through fire, if they survive the test then we shall be rewarded in heaven, if they do not we shall be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Third, God is not responsible for the suffering, we are. We hurt each other and sin against one another, so why should we blame God for our own actions?

[Ben Kenobi]

Or you could convert to a form of Christianty that takes God's *******ness into account (instead of simply trying to hide it), and which has a serious creed about why God has changed since then, about the idea that by joining said religion, you really worship a God of goodness, with all the evil parts removed.

How could God change if he is perfect?

Secondly, the question is not so much, how does God change, but how does the relationship between God and men change between the old and the new testament?

And that is a very good question. Christ's death on the cross was a perfect sacrifice for all of our sins that we have committed. Therefore, in believing in Christ we could be forgiven of our sins in a way in which people could not be forgiven earlier.

[Ben Kenobi]

But Anneshm should remember that Catholics are far more numerous worldwide than protestants, and that there is no unified doctrine of protestantism, with many protestants not taking the OT as face value as well.

I don't see the evidence that Catholics in particular ignore the Old Testament, or treat the Old in any way inferior to the new. Why do you believe that Spiffor?

Aneeshm raises some very good theological points and they deserve better treatment then the options presented here.

1. Keep the bits you like of the bible and throw the rest away
2. Throw the whole thing out.

[Ben Kenobi]

Aneeshm:

Why is he so cruelly violent?

In wiping out most of humanity in a flood? Read some of the passages prior to the flood and you'll see why. The big one is the one that says 'every inclination in their hearts were evil.'

This was the driving point that so discouraged God, that he wanted to start all over and try to build people who would be faithful to him. After the flood God also promises in his mercy to never destroy the world in a flood.

And why is he so impotent in getting even his chosen people to follow his dictates , even though he is supposed to have omnipotence ( no matter how many times he punishes the Israelites , they seem to inevitably return to Baal-worship ) ?

There's the relationship between free will and between human nature. God allows people to sin and allows them to choose to love him, rather then making us automatons. His struggle with people has more to do with how much we love sin, and his desire to respect our own free will in refraining from exercising his omnipotence.

And why is he so egostically concerned about his name not being insulted or even doubted?

Names are important. For example, when Moses goes to God, and God speaks to him, Moses asks how will they know you are God, and he says, My name is I Am.

This is God's personal name, and just like any of us, if we were to trash or slander the name of another, we do so when we use the name of God in the same way.

And why does he hate worshippers of other gods so much ?

Look at what he does to Israel when they stray. There are two issues here, those who are not part of the tribes of Israel, and those who are. The ones outside, who worship pagan gods, are only punished by God in limited circumstances. There are many occasions when God actually elevates pagans over even his own people, as a punishment for their sins.

As for those who are of the tribe of Israel, and they stray, it is like cheating on your marriage. God made a covenant with Israel, (you shall be my people, and I shall be my God), and if Israel breaks faith by prostituting herself to other gods, that infidelity is going to be punished.

[Ben Kenobi]

Okay then, let's stick with the Exodus. How is killing the first born son of every Egyptian, whether they were involved in slavery or not, whether they supported it or not, more morally justifiable than sacrificing your son to a piece of wood?

Brings us back to the question of Pharoah. All Moses asked were that the Jews would be freed. Pharoah had many opportunities to save his people, but finally relented after the Passover.

[Flip McWho]

And that is a very good question. Christ's death on the cross was a perfect sacrifice for all of our sins that we have committed. Therefore, in believing in Christ we could be forgiven of our sins in a way in which people could not be forgiven earlier.

Aye, it wasn't that God became a peace loving God. It was that humanity was put back on the path of light through having Christ as the universal example through which to follow. God decided to no longer interfer as Christ took over management of Earth, promising to return and dish out judgement so many thousand years later (my guess is about 6000yrs or so from now).

We have our free will. We have our example. We have the information available. Judgement is delivered later.

1. Keep the bits you like of the bible and throw the rest away
2. Throw the whole thing out.

Yeah, the thing about piecemealing the bible is that it really becomes your own interpretation of the bible then, not really an objective truth about the world.

[Ben Kenobi]

I've realised that this is the only way to actually understand the roots of a religion . I plan to do exactly this . If there is something else I have to read in order to understand Christainity or Islam , I'd request the forumers to tell me .

A small doubt - is the King James Version of the Bible authentic enough for a student like me ?

Aneeshm:

This is really very important.

If you want to understand Christianity, don't read the KJV from start to finish. Start with the Gospel of John, which is in the New Testament, and then move on to the other Gospels.

I would also recommend, if you can find it, the NIV, as the language is much easier and more modern. There are other bibles too that will work, the KJV is just one that is fairly popular.

Feel free to pm me any questions you may have and I will try to answer them as best as I can.

In contrast, all other christians will insist that other teachings/writings/guidance is essential. If you read the bible you would technically also need to acquaint yourself with these other sources to really understand any of the other forms of christianity. I haven't tried to go much beyond just reading the bible for this reason.

Oh gosh, yes this is a good point.

The interpretations really aren't that necessary unless you run into points that do not seem very clear at all.

There are a wide variety of 'biblical commentaries' out there that deal with specific problem sections, and then you have the Catholics who have the whole wealth of 2000 years of church interpretation...

What I did is that I read and I spoke with a good Christian friend of mine who helped me get the basics down. That is all you really need.