The god of the old testament has . . . . issues

[Robert]

Makes you wonder just how god is meant to be any different from the (libelled) Herod of the New Testament and his supposed 'Masscre of the Innocents'.

1. there are no innocents.
2. Herod was selfish. God in the end became one of us to suffer himself for the faults of man. I don't think Herod did that.

But anyway, your reaction proves my starting position: your position is that everybody is a god in himself and therefor you're angry that God whipes them out. Your starting position is that everybody is innocent. Why do you think so?

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by CyberShy


1. there are no innocents.
2. Herod was selfish. God in the end became one of us to suffer himself for the faults of man. I don't think Herod did that.

But anyway, your reaction proves my starting position: your position is that everybody is a god in himself and therefor you're angry that God whipes them out. Your starting position is that everybody is innocent. Why do you think so?

1. Someone (AFAIK molly bloom himself) mentioned the fetuses as examples for innocent human beings.

2. So, before Jesus god was selfish and not without fail, just like a human being? (and therefore not much better than those he condemned to die for their sins)

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by CyberShy


1. there are no innocents.
2. Herod was selfish. God in the end became one of us to suffer himself for the faults of man. I don't think Herod did that.

But anyway, your reaction proves my starting position: your position is that everybody is a god in himself and therefor you're angry that God whipes them out. Your starting position is that everybody is innocent. Why do you think so?

I'm not at all sure you have understood my 'reaction' and I'm very sure it does not 'prove' your starting position, and I'm equally certain you're not addressing my points at all.

I can't recall insinuating or implying let alone stating that 'everyone is a god in himself' (which frankly would be a bizarre assertion for an atheist to make).

I'm not angry that a supposedly just god wipes out those who have not even had a chance to sin, but I do get (justifiably) feel revulsion for propagandists for this kind of sanctified psychopathy, who brush over genocide and mass murder so lightly.


As for 'innocent until proven guilty' you'll find it's a stance ingrained in me through exposure to Anglo-Saxon common law- and common sense.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Cuz God was a dick to Job purely to prove a point to a 3rd party. If he's willing to deliberatly dick over his most faithful worshipper simply to win a bet, he's no god wothery of worship. . . . and I hadn't gotten to the part about Elisha siccing the bears on those 42 kids.

Once again, you aren't understanding the story of Job (I think).

If you are critizing, it would be better to focus on real events (like the Elisha one).

Jon Miller

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by molly bloom
As for 'innocent until proven guilty' you'll find it's a stance ingrained in me through exposure to Anglo-Saxon common law- and common sense.

Of course the Christian viewpoint is "everyone is guilty, let god sort 'em out", which is a potential recipe for mass slaughter if ever there was one.

[Arrian]

Real events.

-Arrian

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Just to be clear - ...

Liar.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Arrian
Real events.

-Arrian

I was thinking about puting it in quotes, but figured people could think well enough to know what I was talking about.

Jon Miller

[Robert]

Molly Bloom, I believe everybody is a god, not because of supernatural powers or something. It just means: "Decide yourself is something is good or evil and let not others tell you if something is good or evil."

And yes, I have a problem with people committing genocide as well. And yes, I support the anglo-saxian justice system as well. But I'm human. I do look at things in a chronological order. I can't see the future, and I do not have all knowledge. But God has.

I do not advocate that humans start to murder or kill b/c of the above. I just claim that we cannot doubt God or blame God, since we do not have his knowledge neither do we have his authorization.

From a human point of view: every life is sacred, and we should not harm each other.
We cannot up these earthly rules upon God, for he sees the bigger image. And if he wants his plan to succeed, and mankind is doomed without this plan, then he should, and is imho justified, to do whatever is needed to make it a success.

And every human being who thinkst that he can kill in the name of god is insane. it's the 'god' in him or herself that decides that killing any person is 'good'.

Proteus:

1. Someone (AFAIK molly bloom himself) mentioned the fetuses as examples for innocent human beings.

I disagree with that. Certainly from Gods point of view. And for even more sure if you take into concideration that God doesn't have a chronological view on things.

2. So, before Jesus god was selfish and not without fail, just like a human being? (and therefore not much better than those he condemned to die for their sins)

That's again a simplified chronological view on these matters. And even if it should be concidered chronological, then you should take into account that the entire plan was to become human and take the blame himself from the beginning on. The entire plan is focussed on letting this happen. He was busy from the beginning on workong in a very unselfish plan.

If you look even further you can see that there are powers behind the nations. Divine powers. (not per se good-divine powers btw). Some (most) of these powers try to fail Gods plan. The gods of egypt, babylon, Rome, etc. (all the sun-god!!!!) all tried to whipe Israel out or to enslave it. I believe that after all acts of history there's a demonic power that tries to frustrate Gods plan. Even in 1938 Hitler Germany tried to whipe the Jews out. During all the middle ages the Jews were persecuted and murdered. I must say that I'm really surprised that non-christians do not notice the very special position of the Jews in worlds history, and how it matches, even in modern days, the biblical prophecies.

Zachariah profecied 500 BC that Jerusalem would become a huge international problem and that it would ba a burden stone for all nations that are involved with it. Amazing, this was prophecied before Islam was invented and the Golden Rock Mosque was build in Jerusalem.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by CyberShy

The gods of egypt, babylon, Rome, etc. (all the sun-god!!!!) all tried to whipe Israel out or to enslave it. I believe that after all acts of history there's a demonic power that tries to frustrate Gods plan. Even in 1938 Hitler Germany tried to whipe the Jews out.

During all the middle ages the Jews were persecuted and murdered.

Yes, mostly by Christians, that well-known off-shoot of Judaism. They usually had a better time of it in Islam...

So was the Christian's god of the New Testament a demonic power, given that Christians justified Jewish pogroms by reference to the events (contradictorily) portrayed in the Synoptic Gospels ?


Your knowledge of the deities of ancient Egypt, Babylon and Rome is severely flawed if you think that they all worshipped only or exclusively, a sun god. You need to understand what a pantheon is and the concept of polytheism...

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


I was thinking about puting it in quotes, but figured people could think well enough to know what I was talking about.

Jon Miller

Sorry, JM, it just struck me as funny.

-Arrian

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by CyberShy

I just claim that we cannot doubt God or blame God, since we do not have his knowledge neither do we have his authorization.


We cannot up these earthly rules upon God, for he sees the bigger image. And if he wants his plan to succeed, and mankind is doomed without this plan, then he should, and is imho justified, to do whatever is needed to make it a success.

.

So god can behave just like a psychopath, and start instructing us to drag the entrails out of small children and because we can't comprehend the mind of god, we should all sign up for the Divine Disembowelling Insurance Plan.

I've rarely read a ranker religious excuse for 'the ends justify the means' than that.

It's exactly the kind of thinking that lay behind the great disasters and massacres of history, from the falsely portrayed genocidal 'history' of the Old Testament to the Stalinist liquidation of the kulaks and the famines of Maoist China.

[Robert]

Yes, mostly by Christians, that well-known off-shoot of Judaism. They usually had a better time of it in Islam...

During the middle ages: true.
After all christians are humans as well and make wrong decisions. We aren't better or worse then non-christians.

So was the Christian's god of the New Testament a demonic power, given that Christians justified Jewish pogroms by reference to the events (contradictorily) portrayed in the Synoptic Gospels ?

No, but the 'god' that was behind the christian pogroms was certainly demonic, and certainly not JHWH.
Like the 'god' of the crusades wasn't JHWH.

And those anti-gay-protestors in the states aren't influenced by JHWH as well. It's all a matter of humans (christians) who decide that they know what is right and wrong and want to put that upon other people and refer to their god to justify this.

The New Testament is clear on the issue of the Jews. Paul states that the Jews are God's people and God still has a plan with them, and how he still loves his own people (Paul was a jew) (Romans 11)

There is nothing in the new testament that justifies any agression against the Jews. Those who crucified Jesus said "His blood comes upon us and our children." It was not Jesus or any of the christians in the new testament that said that their blood should be brought upon their children.

Your knowledge of the deities of ancient Egypt, Babylon and Rome is severely flawed if you think that they all worshipped only or exclusively, a sun god. You need to understand what a pantheon is and the concept of polytheism...

Did it really look like I was trying to give an indept insight in the entire polytheistic world and the patheon of the greeks and the babylonians? Or did I just refer to it?

Oh, of course, it was the latter.

And of course the jewish/christian multiple-gods system isn't the same as the greek/babylonian polytheistic system. (like the mosaic so-called monotheistic system isn't equal to the temporary egyptian monotheistic system).

But I'm sure you'll agree with me that there are much simularities between the greek and the roman pantheon. (much gods only have different names) (should I say 'most gods'?)
There are simularities between the pantheons of the greek, the babylonians, the romans, etc. The sun-god is the most important God most of the time (Ra, Apollo, etc.). Of course there's logic behind that, since the sun is more or less the most important natural phenomen for mankind). But even if you look further you see that much stories are simular as well. The upper god who gets a son who he is himself, while they die and ressurrect. (which is all a parody / demonic copying of the Jesus/God ressurection) (IMHO of course)

Of course the pantheons were different, but I believe that the same demonic powers were (are?) behind it. For sure since all these nations tried to enslave / destroy the israelites.

[Robert]

So god can behave just like a psychopath, and start instructing us to drag the entrails out of small children and because we can't comprehend the mind of god, we should all sign up for the Divine Disembowelling Insurance Plan.

1. No, if God wants this to happen he can do it himself.
2. No, this is not needed anymore since his plan has been fulfilled by Jesus, there's no change anymore for the powers to frustrate this plan.
3. No, we're now living in the age of the New Testament. Now we have the mission to spread the gospel.

I've rarely read a ranker religious excuse for 'the ends justify the means' than that.

I said that this counted for God, not for simple humans.
We don't know the end, we don't know the results, we should not intervene, we should not murder/kill/etc. in the name of God.

It's exactly the kind of thinking....

You continue to missinterpret my 'thinking' and mix up that what God can do with that what humans can do.
I do not say that human mass slaughter are justified, or something. I said that God is justified for doing so.

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Brings us back to the question of Pharoah. All Moses asked were that the Jews would be freed. Pharoah had many opportunities to save his people, but finally relented after the Passover.

Wait wait wait... this is your moral justification for killing innocent children? I can only deduce two arguments from this paragraph.

The first is that it was okay for God to smite all those Egyptians because Moses was very polite and patient in asking Pharaoh if he'd stop being a bad man. This means that the lives of innocent Egyptians, who played no part in the enslavement of the Hebrews, were forfeit simply because the Pharaoh wouldn't do what Moses wanted him to do.

To correlate with my needlessly absurd terrorist argument again, this would essentially justify the acts of Osama bin Laden if he'd gone up to Mister Bush and asked nicely, "Please stop being mean to my Arabs."

The second argument that I can find is that, because Pharaoh did indeed give in and let Moses' people go after the Passover, then everything done in order to achieve that end is justified; that is, the ends justify the means - the classic utilitarian argument.

Do you really mean to say that anything God does is okay so long as it gets the result he wants? This would seem to imply that he is above morality (in which case why should we do what he wants?), or that he adheres to a higher morality than the one he preaches to his followers. If the latter case is true, what is this morality, and how can we possibly figure out what it is?

It would appear to me, from his actions, that his morality is essentially - do whatever it takes to protect the Israelites - nothing else matters.

Is the freedom of a small number of God's chosen people more valuable than the lives of thousands who don't worship him, or have never even heard of him?