The god of the old testament has . . . . issues

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
Those who were responsible for the holocaust were normally put to death after the trials at nuremberg.

Apart from the ones recruited by the CIA.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Apart from the ones recruited by the CIA.

Of course.
Or those recruited by the Soviet Union (and of course also apart from those who were able to flee to argentinia and other countries)

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
Most of the persons which nowadays think that all germans are responsible for it (even germans who were childs or even not born during WW2 ) stem from the far left of the political spectrum.

I'd imagine it is something proper to Germany. Among foreigners, the German-haters strongly tend to be xenophobes, and the holocaust can be a reason as much as an acceptable excuse to their xenophobia.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Sir Og


Would you care to elaborate how the Jews featured in the history of Asia and the world as a whole. Let me remind you that the mediteranean is not the center of the world. Asia has far greater population and was much more powerfull than Europe throughout human history.

Eurocentrists

I didn't say that the Jews are the center of the world human-wise. They are Biblical the center of the world.
Gods plan of salvation has the jews as the center.

BTW, you can see that in modern history the Jews (and Jerusalem) are already becoming the main issue in the world again.

[Urban Ranger]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The god of the old testament has . . . . issues

Originally posted by OzzyKP
The whole point of Jesus is to make a new covenant and in some ways (not all of course) to start over clean. I consider all the barbaric parts of the OT swept aside by the NT.

Why, that's nicely revisionist of you.

At any rate, if YHWH is really omnipotent as asserted, why would he need such a convoluted way to "start over clean?"

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Molly Bloom, I believe everybody is a god, not because of supernatural powers or something.

Uh huh, that's just so very Gnostic of you.

Repent, sinner!

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Gods plan of salvation has the jews as the center.

Round my way God is an abbreviation for Dennis Bergkamp, which would put the Dutch at the centre of all things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBDOsClJLbM&search=bergkamp

[Robert]

Originally posted by Cort Haus


Round my way God is an abbreviation for Dennis Bergkamp, which would put the Dutch at the centre of all things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBDOs...earch=bergkamp

Your god is sooooo over his top

[Robert]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Uh huh, that's just so very Gnostic of you.

Repent, sinner!

You miss the part where I said that that's not a good thing and we all should stop being wannabegods

[Lorizael]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Oh, not quite.

First of all, what do we say in the case of the holocaust? Do we not hold the Germans responsible as a people for what happened even if they did not actually participate in the events. We are told the plight of the Jews in Egypt and how they were enslaved. When the time came for the Jews to be freed, Pharaoh had several choices.

First he could release the Jews, or he could persist and continue holding the Jews in slavery. Pharoah chose to hold them on slavery. God sent Pharaoh 7 plagues prior to the passover as a warning that Pharoah could only hold onto the Jews at great cost to himself. Had Pharoah relented then none of the Egyptians would have died.

But how deserving of their fate were the Egyptians? What could they have possibly done to prevent their own deaths? God did not give the Egyptians a choice, even if he gave Pharaoh a choice.

Ah, but Moses said, "Let my people go!" Is Bush enslaving Arabs?

It was an analogy. It can only be taken so far. Nevertheless, Arabs hate Americans for a reason.

If so, why then did God send 7 plagues first before the passover? Why not wipe out the Egyptians completely? If the ends justify the means, why bother with all this other stuff?

Fair enoguh.

First off, our ways are not God's ways, and his ways are not our ways. So in a sense God is above all of us, and our relationship with him, is not the same as our relationship to each other.

It's like someone who breaks something that he has made and someone who breaks something that is not his. Who would prevent the author from ripping up his own script?

The same people that are currently trying to make sure MLK Jr's writings aren't auctioned off to the highest bidder by his estate.

That is to say, sometimes something someone makes can have value for someone other than the someone who made it.

God created the world and the people within it with his own ideas in my mind, with his own values, but the people within this world have, by whatever means, created their own values that differ from those of God. It is not fair for God to punish us when we follow our own values (which may be derived from what he tells us to do) when he will not explain what his own values are.

You say that we cannot understand God and his plan, and I say that this is false. God is omnipotent; he could describe it to us in a useful way if he gave enough of a **** to do so.

Again, if this were so, why does God show mercy upon the Egyptians by giving pharaoh 7 opportunities to let the Jews go?

Merciful are his actions now? If a bully comes up to me, punches me in the face, and then says, "That's your first warning. If you don't do what I want you to do, I'm going to cut your balls off," is he merciful for punching me first rather than cutting my balls off to begin with?

Consider this. If a man comes to you and says, let the Jews go or else my God will come down and rain toads on Egypt, you would likely laugh at him.

What happens if toads actually rain down on Egypt right after he says this? Quite a different situation. I would think that I would start to listen to someone after the very first warning.

I still say, what choice did the Egyptian citizen have in this matter?

[Vesayen]

I need to go to work... but in response to the original post, would you give some examples of what you thought was horrific violence?

[Robert]

But how deserving of their fate were the Egyptians? What could they have possibly done to prevent their own deaths? God did not give the Egyptians a choice, even if he gave Pharaoh a choice.

Mankind had a choise, and wasted it (Genesis 3, the original sin)
Right now we don't deserve another choise, and if we get one it's only mercy.

[Lorizael]

Free will is granted to and employed by individuals, not groups of people.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Lorizael
Free will is granted to and employed by individuals, not groups of people.

But at the same time people act in groups.

[Lorizael]

The people you are referencing did not even exist when those ****ers Adam and Eve made their decision. Those were two individuals who were not considering the fate of humanity when they did what they did, and the rest of the individuals that make up humankind may not have made the same choice. We weren't acting as a people, and don't deserve this fate.