Immigrant Riots

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Oerdin:

I'd also like to add that the personal behaviour of Nicolas Sarkozy has seriously contributed to fanning the flames.

On TV, our minister wasn't just speaking about "punishing the culprits", or "being tough on the criminals". That would have been expected of a police minister.

Rather, he was talking about "Cleaning the cities with the Kärcher [high-pressure-water cleaning machine]", and about the "scum" that is wreaking havoc.

These words have been taken as a provocation by many young thugs who think they have to show who's the boss. And who now defy the police by wrecking havoc, believing they are the masters.

Ok, that makes their behavior a bit more understandable but it still cannot be tolerated. During the LA riots things started to calm down when the mayor began making official statements that citizens had the right to use deadly force in order to protect their property from looters. The governor also called in the State National Guard and gave them broad powers to what it took to restore order. The orgy of looting almost completely stopped after several looters were shot and killed. It seems stealing TV sets is ok but few people want to die for a TV.

[lightblue]

Just saw a report on Channel 4 news here, which was bascally a view from the other side (the rioters). The two kids that died were part of it, but apparently soon after riot police teargassed a mosque which set them of much more. There were interviews with eldery men and women in the mosques and home videos of the shells in the prayer room. Seems rather provocative.

[lightblue]

Though now I am reading police reports that it was from an "unknown source". Seems odd for rioters to have access to police issue teargas shells though.

[Spiffor]

Indeed. I imagine this is an incident or malevolence. But this is typically the kind of thing that seriously contributes to fanning the flames. I don't see how anything could calm down the potential rioters on this matter.

[lightblue]

Am I right in assuming that the French police, like the British one (Lawrence report, the Panorama sting etc), has some issues with rightwing tendencies. It seems like it might play into their hands most of all, must be like a gift to the FN.

[CapTVK]

http://news.tf1.fr/news/france/0,,3260739,00.html

About 30 cops injured and two seriously so far in Grigny when they were taking gunfire. Going by the news I'm surprised no rioters have been shot so far. Seems like the police are keeping restraint but now they are in a "catch22"-situation, damned you do (rioters get shot, more riots), damned if you don't (rioters see they can get away with anything).

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lightblue
Am I right in assuming that the French police, like the British one (Lawrence report, the Panorama sting etc), has some issues with rightwing tendencies. It seems like it might play into their hands most of all, must be like a gift to the FN.

I remember having seen a poll one year ago that showed the political sympathies according to job.

In law and military, a bit more than 50% of the respondents are sympathetic to the far right.

Yes.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by CapTVK

http://news.tf1.fr/news/france/0,,3260739,00.html

About 30 cops injured and two seriously so far in Grigny when they were taking gunfire. Going by the news I'm surprised no rioters have been shot so far. Seems like the police are keeping restraint but now they are in a "catch22"-situation, damned you do (rioters get shot, more riots), damned if you don't (rioters see they can get away with anything).

The rioters don't "get away with anything". They get arrested when caught. Every night, hundreds of people get arrested that way.

[Colonâ„¢]

Every single rioter may be getting arrested now, but was that the case during the first few nights? I'm having the impression the authorithies is trying to catch up with the facts on the ground, and that at each stage they fall short of what is actually needed.

[Colonâ„¢]

This is ridiculous. This has almost been lasting for 2 weeks already and spreadin across France. Commentators are right to point the wrong-headed provocations and the conditions in the banlieus but this isn't some spontaneous eruption of frustration anymore. For some people any excuse suffices to start rampaging. Impose a curfew and deploy troops if need to. Sure it will cause grumbles but those people need to be shown who's boss. Then you can start working on the underlying causes.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Spiffor
The brown people suffer from common racism, which seriously hampers their chances, and which is an extreme symbolic violence exerted upon them. It is clearly harder for a brown person to find a good job, to find private housing, or to get entry in nightclubs. Brown people also get more often annoyed by the cops, sometimes to the point of harassment and abuse.

So, the immigrant background is not irrelevant, even though it would be completely wrong to think it is about immigrant riots. Class hate also belongs to the mix: a black/arab dressed in a suit, and who goes to the office every day will be much less victim of hatred than a youngster dressed like a "racaille". But even these nice Frenchified brown people will encounter a racism that stunts their chances, and their frustration is felt by the lower-class brown people (it belongs to their collective consciousness).

To anyone with an ounce of sense, it's very clear that you're hitting the nail on the head. Unfortunately, as you can see from this thread, all a lot of people are really interested in is the fact that immigrants (even second generation ones) are involved, in order to prop up their existing beliefs.

[DanS]

I don't buy this Sarkozy "provocations" line of argument. Do you say "please" and "thank you" to rioters?

[CapTVK]

Plus the fact that there seem to be a LOT of rioters out there. You may arrest a few hundreds, but what about the rest? A curfew would be the best way, but even that's almost a week too late now.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Winston
Ah, back to the old form, putting words in people's mouths and flinging vulgarities about. Brilliant show.

And here's a case study. Look out, Winston! Immigrants might be reading this!

[DanS]

So, the immigrant background is not irrelevant, even though it would be completely wrong to think it is about immigrant riots.

I don't agree with this. It seems like you are arguing a narrow specific (racism) when a broader explanation is required (lack of integration of immigrants into the polity, only one facet of which is racism).

Granted, this difference of view might be due to the fact that the US polity is not based on ethnicity/race, whereas it is based on ethnicity/race in most other countries. However, I note that this is my thread.