Immigrant Riots

[Spiffor]

I take it as you conceding that these riots aren't Muslim then.

[Colonâ„¢]

They should do it the civilized way by assassinating judges and forming mafia gangs instead.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Especially when you consider that what's happening in France is not Islamic riots.

Quite agree - I just wanted to make it clear that Che is wrong.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


So there's no need for protectionism against American cultural exports, right?

"American" cultural exorts do so well because of two things:

1. The US cultural industry has better production values due to its greater size and capitalization

2. Because US culture has yet to solidify into something, its content is far more universal- it relies on themes and stories that appeal far more broadly than content from industries attuned to a more narrow sensitivity of a specific culture.

Protecting oneself against "American culture" can still happen, in so far as one would speak about protectionism against a much bigger and more developed industry, and trying to maintain local sensitivities in the face of a more universal theme that cuts accross said sensitvities.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Originally posted by Oerdin
Immigration is not a right.

Actually it is. It's in the UN charter of human rights. The U.S. signed it.

Out of interest, could you cite this for me? I'm aware of article 13:

Article 13.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

So emigration is a right, but I have not heard of immigration being one.

[RGBVideo]

Especially when you consider that what's happening in France is not Islamic riots.

The French muslim community is calling for a calmer situation. And the observant Muslims in the ghettoes tend to have a much less violent behaviour than the non-observants in everyday life.

Then the "muslim community" will naturally applaud the harsh prison and death penalty -sentences given to the actual rioters who destroyed both the homes and the image of the hard-working, earnestly living, European welfare system-saving muslim immigrants, who are the norm? Right?

[GePap]

Any state can refuse entry to a foreigner, thought not to their own.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
"American" cultural exorts do so well because of two things:

So you concede we have a culture to export?

[lightblue]

The media here are playing out like the French government (and Sarkozy and de Villepin in particular) seem to busy to blame eachother and trying to score points rather than solve any of the issues. Is that how it is playing out in France as well?

Similarly, as I said in a previous post, I am still wondering why a curfew has not been an option in the worst hit areas yet? I know it's spreading into the country now, but certain areas must've been hit consistently for 10 nights in a row now and a curfew would surely help. Is there no provision for curfews in French law?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Winston
So I take it you don't consider it an important and relevant part of the picture to report that the rioters are predominantly from an immigrant background?

Not really, no. And having read Spiffor's posts, I'm even less inclined to consider it so. This looks like a classic case of an economic underclass kicking back, not "Attack of the Evil Immigrants!". So get a clue yourself, arsehole.

[Winston]

Ah, back to the old form, putting words in people's mouths and flinging vulgarities about. Brilliant show.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lightblue
The media here are playing out like the French government (and Sarkozy and de Villepin in particular) seem to busy to blame eachother and trying to score points rather than solve any of the issues. Is that how it is playing out in France as well?

This is not the impression that I had these past few days. There used to be a rivalry between the hard line of Sarkozy and the soft line of the Integration minister some 4-5 days ago. But since then, all ministers overly display a unity in the face of the problem.

There is no doubt that both potential right-wing candidates for the 2007 elections will use these events as a political resource in the future. However, they don't seem to do so right now.

Now, I haven't watched the news tonight. There was an emergency meeting this afternoon, so maybe the outright politicking has indeed happened.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by VJ
Then the "muslim community" will naturally applaud the harsh prison and death penalty -sentences given to the actual rioters who destroyed both the homes and the image of the hard-working, earnestly living, European welfare system-saving muslim immigrants, who are the norm? Right?

1) There will be no death penalty sentences. We happen to be on the civilized side of the planet.

2) I imagine the Muslim community will witness cleavages on the issue similar to the rest of society. Some people would favour weaker punishment, some people would favour harsher punishment. I don't think the Muslim community will be really different from the rest of society.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lightblue
Similarly, as I said in a previous post, I am still wondering why a curfew has not been an option in the worst hit areas yet? I know it's spreading into the country now, but certain areas must've been hit consistently for 10 nights in a row now and a curfew would surely help. Is there no provision for curfews in French law?

Curfews are a possibility, but there are several reasons why it's not done:

1) Not so many people are rioting. And the police arrests them as soon as it catches them. As a result, several cities, that were hit by the riots at the beginning, have now calmed down.

2) The police is now attempting to avoid provocation. Its job is now clearly to attack offenders, but not to provoke groups prior to their rioting. A curfew, since it'd mean that many people would be "provoked" by the cops (considering the hatred between the cops and the disaffected youth, whether it belongs to the troublemakers or not, such a thing would be seen as a provocation indeed).

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Not really, no. And having read Spiffor's posts, I'm even less inclined to consider it so. This looks like a classic case of an economic underclass kicking back, not "Attack of the Evil Immigrants!".

There is something relevant with the "immigrant" background of many inhabitants of the ghetto (I put "immigrant" in "" because most young people are born in France and have a French nationality).

The brown people suffer from common racism, which seriously hampers their chances, and which is an extreme symbolic violence exerted upon them. It is clearly harder for a brown person to find a good job, to find private housing, or to get entry in nightclubs. Brown people also get more often annoyed by the cops, sometimes to the point of harassment and abuse.

So, the immigrant background is not irrelevant, even though it would be completely wrong to think it is about immigrant riots. Class hate also belongs to the mix: a black/arab dressed in a suit, and who goes to the office every day will be much less victim of hatred than a youngster dressed like a "racaille". But even these nice Frenchified brown people will encounter a racism that stunts their chances, and their frustration is felt by the lower-class brown people (it belongs to their collective consciousness).