Immigrant Riots

[Pekka]

I think one of the experts on CNN made an interesting point. He said that some of these rioters are in fact criminals just like the cops point out, and if they didn't start it, they are in the streets NOW. Some people are genuinely pissed off for variety of reasons of course, many of them legit reasons.

However, this is not a desperate outcry of France being so oppressive and racist. Many of the 2nd gen immigrants feel they are not French, or welcomed as true French in France even when they have citizenship from birth.

This brings two problems. First, some is due to racism. But this is the norm in the world. Some people just don't like immigrants, 2nd generation or not, period.

But mostly, because THEY don't FEEL French to begin with. They have stronger mental ties to their country of origin, even when they haven't even necessarily visited it, ever. So, even though they are French, they aren't. They want to extend the.. concept of French further. At the same time when this is a legit worry, it's really not the number one priority worry of the youth, who is now rioting, and certainly is not an excuse to kill people and burn places.

They aren't integrated enough is one big reason, but where does that start? It starts from the immigrant. Granted if a country is too hostile against immigrants, it becomes a problem, but the immigrant communities are the ones who need to push to make it happen too. They can't jsut sit around and expect everything to just happen. While native originals should accept new faces and blood in the hood, their ways and stuff, the immigrants must also accept the ways of the ones who were there first, that's the bottom line, and that's something many of these hooligans don't get. But it's something their parents get, and they try to say don't go out there rioting tonight, it's not what you should do. But thugs don't listen, they want to tear up places. Just throw in excuses, so they get some sympathy amonghts idiots so the army won't outright bomb them.

Mark my words, most are in it for the thrills at this point. And many of them are extremely racist too. Sympathy is for losers, we need strong action asap.

Because the real danger is that the more racist far right like LePen etc get more popular directly from this. What is needed is to stop this riot right now, and then start talking about how the integration can be better and faster, how can all sides contribute to that. That's the best way IMO, right now this only helps the racist ones, and more and more undecided people will go to their camps, and the tension is ever higher.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by DanS
Good thing you're Johnny on the spot and personally interviewing the rioters as to their backgrounds!

As opposed to living across the Atlantic and getting 'immigrant' and 'French citizen' and 'British citizen' hopelessly confused.


I do understand that there are differences between the varieties of English spoken in the United States and the rest of the world, but I would have thought that the word 'immigrant' was really not that obscure, and its etymology not too indistinct.

From the Latin, 'immigrare', a compound of 'in' meaning 'into', and 'migrare, -atum' meaning 'to remove'.

Thus to immigrate is to migrate or remove into a country, with intention of settling in it.

Where do you suggest that the youthful participants in the disturbances in France and the United Kingdom have emigrated from ?

The wombs of their mothers, perhaps ?

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Pekka
They should do what I proposed. The rioters are screaming war. Bring war. Give them what they want. Shoot few of them. Not necessarily to kill but hey if someone dies, better make sure it's done by professionals.

Bring in the army , arrange ambushes , and sweep Paris . Finish off the vanguards of the rioters in every riot that you encounter . Let the bodies lie there for at least a few hours ( but clean them up before they start stinking ) . This will give you enough time to work out a long-term solution .

[muxec]

ZOG=Zionist Occupation Group

[ZOG]
Israel warned France, that 10% muslims in civilized European country is too much. Even 5% is too much. We warned France but they did not beleive us and said us humanist **** about palestinians.
[Too_Serious_Too_Be_Funny]
And French do not have Israel's experience in dealing with such situations. Indeed France needs Israel's help in training and experience. But French arrogance blinds them, they think they can easily handle this alone.

[/Too_Serious_Too_Be_Funny]

[/ZOG]

You say 2-3 generations is not enough to assimilate yourself? Maybe you are right, if your grandparent is barbarian from barbarian country who never heard that civilization is education, than yes. If you have no traditions of hard work than yes. If you as guest pass your alien and hostile in it's root, hostile from "holly" book religion from generation to generation than do expect to be treated as guest even after 5 generations.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
When I read all the BS posted on the Internet by people trying to justify any kind of criminal conduct in the name of freedom of speech and personal rights I almost wish Europe truly becomes a muslim caliphate so the people supporting all of this will finally learn something.



These riots are not about angry minorities or poor living standards. These are both muslim immigrants and 2nd/3rd generation french muslims rioting as they do not accept to integrate themselves and blame the government for creating themselves islamic ghettoes inside european major cities, where police and non-muslims are supposed to stay away from.



For you that have no idea what muslim ghettoes are like, these are entire sectors of a city where a european woman walk into alone without facing a serious risk of being gang-raped, as to them every woman in the world which is not muslim is a whore. Well, I say there's something wrong with some muslims living in Europe nowadays, and if people and politicians don't start paying attention to this, people like Le Pen will eventually take power one day.

BTW Le Pen gotten the majority of his votes in french cities where muslims are present in large numbers, as Marseille, Aix-en-Provence, Montpellier, Nice and Lyon. Either these are fascist cities or those voters obviously have a problem with the local muslim communities.


And don't come up with the racist racist crap. I'm gay and 2nd generation immigrant myself.

So gay immigrants can´t be racists?

[Zoid]

Originally posted by aneeshm




Bring in the army , arrange ambushes , and sweep Paris . Finish off the vanguards of the rioters in every riot that you encounter . Let the bodies lie there for at least a few hours ( but clean them up before they start stinking ) . This will give you enough time to work out a long-term solution .

Even better is to take a few rioters chop off their heads and stick them on pikes placed in the local square. That´ll show ´em who´s boss!

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Seeker
This quibbling over 'immigrant' vs 'citizen' is disingenous. The controversy over immigrants was/is over their ability to assimilate and adapt to the host culture as a group over time, not over the merel legal status of a passport holder.

So these issues ARE an 'immigration' related problem, regardless of where people of other cultures were born geographically.

QFT

The use of the term "immigrant riots" was a mistake, that caused silly quibbling over terms. Immigration related riots would be better, or ethnic riots, though that might imply riots between two groups, rather than versus the state. While there is certainly a large social component, I dont think you could simply call these poor or working class riots, could you? (Myself, I would have simply titled it Paris is Burning, or something like that)

Note also the failure to assimilate into mainstream culture does NOT mean the youths are still part of the culture of their country of origin, as apparently they are not.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Colon
Spiff, aren't the local authorithies able to impose curfews without permission by the central gov't?

I really don't know the specifics.

I remember that, some time in the past, some cities had decided curfews (way before the current events). Yesterday, Villepin spoke on TV about "mayors" being able to decide curfews where needed.

OTOH, the newspapers are talking about Villepin encouraging the police headmen to decide curfews. It seems, from looking at these newspapers, that curfews are the jurisdiction of police headmen.

[Spiffor]

One small thing that made me chuckle today:

Like more than a million Parisians, I use the regional subway to come home from work. This "RER" has the reputation of being filled with petty crime.

In the RER, everything was normal, as usual. People were dozing or waiting for their destination. One person was reading Hürriyet, a Turkish newspaper.

On that Hürriyet, the front page was dedicated to the riots, with a truly hellish picture of an insurrection. The contrast between the foreign coverage of the events (it really looked like an insurrection), and the usual bored quiet that was in that RER was pretty amusing

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor
One small thing that made me chuckle today:

Like more than a million Parisians, I use the regional subway to come home from work. This "RER" has the reputation of being filled with petty crime.

In the RER, everything was normal, as usual. People were dozing or waiting for their destination. One person was reading Hürriyet, a Turkish newspaper.

On that Hürriyet, the front page was dedicated to the riots, with a truly hellish picture of an insurrection. The contrast between the foreign coverage of the events (it really looked like an insurrection), and the usual bored quiet that was in that RER was pretty amusing

i was in Brooklyn, New York during the city wide electrical blackout of 1976. There was looting in certain neighborhoods, including Flatbush, not more than a mile from where i lived. We didnt find out about the looting till we heard about it on battery powered radios the next morning.

[lord of the mark]

BBC:

"Community leaders from France's main ethnic minorities have demanded new laws to end discrimination in jobs and housing, and an end to what they say is police harassment.

They resent police searches for "sans-papiers" - illegal immigrants - and the constant threat of deportation hanging over them. They also want the right to vote, even for those without French citizenship. "


So it seems there are definitely immigration related issues.

[Sandman]

Would I be correct in thinking that the French government doesn't collect information on ethnicity or religion?

[DanS]

On that Hürriyet, the front page was dedicated to the riots, with a truly hellish picture of an insurrection. The contrast between the foreign coverage of the events (it really looked like an insurrection), and the usual bored quiet that was in that RER was pretty amusing

That brings up an important point. The riots are on a very small scale. It makes you wonder why the authorities didn't nip the riots in the bud, rather than let them fester for almost two weeks.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DanS


That brings up an important point. The riots are on a very small scale. It makes you wonder why the authorities didn't nip the riots in the bud, rather than let them fester for almost two weeks.

challenging tactics, IIUC. A few guys, coordinating with cell phones, text messages, etc gather, burn a car, and run. Not your fathers urban riot.

[Colon™]

Originally posted by Colon
That's overblown. There were some minor disturbances, but nothing in the way of actual riots. It's not even obvious to me if the occurances were any worse than at regular nights.

Turns out one of those disturbances (a gasoline bomb thrown against the offices of the far-right party in the city of Bruges) was probably carried out by whiteys of the far left.