Immigrant Riots

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by Spiffor

So, I sure don't have an actual poll with me. But my first impression is that Sarkozy is getting utterly unpopular among the populations of the cité, even among those who don't riot.

You don't need a poll to know that calling a group of people scum and riff-raff is rather destructive to your popularity with that group...

[Pekka]

I guess this explains why nazis run over France so fast. And that we should reconsider the military alliance again as.. well.. it seems kind of..... weak is a strong word.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Does anyone have the actual scum quote(in French and in English, SVP?) And the context? I saw a claim made that he was just responding to some locals complaining about crime.

"On va vous débarrasser de cette racaille" (link)
Which I translate as: "We will rid you of this scum"

Incidentally, I've had much trouble finding the exact quote (in the article, there is also mention of Sarkozy saying explicitely that he doesn't confuse all the inhabitants with the scum).
It happened during Sarkozy's trip in an uneasy city, when some youngsters have made trouble by booing and throwing some projectiles including plastic bottles. If I may add (it is not in the article, which comes from Sarkozy's own party), there are several testimonies of Sarkozy being absolutely atrocious whenever someone stands in his way - as such, I find his reaction very much in character.

If you look for "Sarkozy racaille" on google, you'll find many many sites that don't have the whole quote, but only the word racaille. Because that's the one thing that is now present in all minds.

Even if Sarkozy made an overheated statement, and has been less than ideal in controlling police brutality, I dont see any French leaders who have as broad a vision of the problem or determination to solve it.

While I think Sarjozy is determined to solve the problem (he is determined for many things, and he does have a vision for France, I admit), I absolutely don't think he has a broad vision of the problem.

I used to think Sarkozy was an extremely smart leader. But the 3 years of him being the most mediatic politician in France, I've understood that his take on things is obtuse and ideological.
1) He wants to go too far too fast. This unsettles even those who support the direction he wants to give France (mostly, in economic matters)
2) His responses about crime have been outstandingly about punishment. The only structural problem of the cités he wants to tackle is discrimination, whereas there are many others, as I've tried to explain in previous posts.
3) Punishment is so important to him that he is making inroads against the independance of justice (he publicly said he'd punish a judge who released a criminal - despite this being completely out of his jurisdiction)
4) Almost everything in his agenda is an imitation of what happens in the US, which he admires. Even for somebody who'd support the americanisation of France (to whom I obviously don't belong ), the complete lack of thinking about adapting the US model to the realities of France show a deeply ideological, and I'd even say irresponsible, outlook on policies.

These 5 points lead me to strongly believe that he is not a smart policy-maker. And in the case of the cités, it shows:
- nothing against the concentration of destitute populations (when he was finance minister, he opposed any new public housing programme that would relieve the burden of the existing cités)
- nothing about making jobs more attractive
- nothing about a better access to education
- nothing about a cultural policy that could help against the counter-culture of the cités
- nothing about preventing petty crime and creating bonds between the institutions and the cités' inhabitants (the proximity police was actually divided by half when he came to power)

His vision on the cités isn't broad.

[Spiffor]

Oh, and curfews should start happening. However, it's up to mayors to decide them, so ti shouldn't be homogenous on the whole territory.

[pchang]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Today, one of my colleagues even told me he was sure that all the arrested teens were innocent, and that the riots are actually done by one small group that is paid to do it.

This seems quite paranoid and logistically impossible.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Colon


They're using "immigrants" as a generic term. One may be 3rd generation French, but he'll still be labelled as "immigrant".

How stupid, using that logic, my dad is an "immigrant" (he's 3rd generation and he's a proud American).

[Spiffor]

Some actual data:

From Le Monde

Des individus jeunes et sans mobiles cohérents, selon les procureurs

Les nombreux jeunes arrêtés depuis vendredi pour des violences dans les banlieues ont commencé à défiler devant les tribunaux. Les procureurs de plusieurs villes, réunis lundi au ministère de la justice, ont constaté qu'une majorité sont très jeunes et semblent avoir agi sans mobiles cohérents et sans organisation.

Les faits concernent surtout des incendies volontaires et des violences contre les policiers. Les prévenus sont le plus souvent des jeunes de 14 à 20 ans, fréquemment des Français issus de l'immigration en provenance du Maghreb ou de l'Afrique noire. Ils peuvent avoir un passé de délinquant, mais beaucoup ont des casiers judiciaires vierges, ont déclaré les procureurs de plusieurs villes réunis lundi au ministère de la justice. L'impression qui se dégage des dossiers est plutôt celle d'actions plus ou moins improvisées sans aucun but précis, estiment la plupart des magistrats.

PAS DE SIGNES DE "COMMUNAUTARISME"

"Ce sont de jeunes mineurs qui paraissent considérer cela comme un jeu", a estimé Olivier de Baynast, procureur général d'Amiens (Somme), qui constate '"une espèce d'émulation dans le côté ludique, pas du tout – en tout cas dans [la] région – de volonté systématique de s'attaquer à la police, de s'attaquer à des personnes considérées comme plus riches que soi". Il souligne que dans sa région, où le taux de chômage est supérieur à la moyenne, les jeunes issus de l'immigration ne semblent pas majoritaires parmi les personnes arrêtées.

Les magistrats sont aussi très prudents quant à un rôle de l'islam ou de l'extrémisme religieux dans la propagation des violences. "Rien ne permet de dire (...) que les événements prennent un aspect communautariste. En revanche, quand vous découvrez, comme à Evry, un laboratoire de confection de cocktails Molotov, je pense que ça dénote quand même une certaine organisation", a déclaré Yves Bot, procureur général de Paris. Ce magistrat, souvent présenté comme proche du ministre de l'intérieur, Nicolas Sarkozy, défend comme lui la thèse d'une diffusion organisée des émeutes par des groupes de trafiquants. "Quand de cité à cité, de ville à ville, on communique par Internet, ça démontre aussi un certain dialogue et du dialogue à la coordination entre eux, il n'y a pas beaucoup d'espace à franchir", a-t-il dit.

"On sait que des gens ont intérêt à ce qu'on ne pénètre pas dans certains endroits. Ces gens-là sont des trafiquants", a ajouté Yves Bot. Un point de vue peu partagé : certains magistrats soulignent au contraire qu'aucune émeute ne se produit dans des quartiers connus pour leurs trafics, comme si les gangs ne voulaient pas attirer l'attention. Au tribunal de Bobigny, aucun trafiquant de drogue connu, grand délinquant ou militant islamiste, ne figure parmi la quarantaine de personnes jugées lundi, a déclaré le procureur François Molins. Le préfet des Hauts-de-Seine, Michel Delpuech, a lui aussi souligné que dans son département, plaque tournante de l'Ile-de-France, les quartiers où prospère le trafic de drogue "paraissent être les moins agités".

This data comes from the tribunals that have started instructing the individual cases. these aren't firm statistics, but the impressions of the judicial administrators who have the first contact with the accused.

The accused are mostly young, between 14 and 20 years, and seem not to have cohesive motives or organization. Most of them are Frenchmen of North-African or Subsaharian-African ascent. Many have an empty criminal record.

An interviewed justice, from outside Paris (in the Somme to be precise), says that his accused mostly see the riots like a game. Most of his accused are not of foreign ascent.

Another intervied justice, from Paris, says that the discovery of a workshop making molotov cocktails does show a certain amount of organization, even though he doesn't think that religious extremism is behind it. Being close to Nicolas Sarkozy, the justice thinks that mafias do coordinate the riots between cités.

However, most interviewed justices don't share that point of view: few riots happen in areas that are known for their illegal traffics. The justice of Bobigny, for example, says that no known dealer or Islamist activist is found in his court. The police headman for the Hauts-de-Seine district is saying that the areas known for their traffics are actually the least agitated.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

"The only structural problem of the cités he wants to tackle is discrimination, whereas there are many others, as I've tried to explain in previous posts.

Im not sure thats not the right prioirity. Its difficult to eliminate poverty quickly, (leaving aside means that create more problems in the long run) Discrimination, however, creates a sense of anger, and humiliation, beyond structural poverty. Again, from what I hear via the press, is more anger against racism, than about povery per se. And racism is a powerful denial of the basis of the French ideal (as it is of the American ideal) however nothing in the French ideal promises an abolition of poverty.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by pchang
This seems quite paranoid and logistically impossible.

Yes, I also disagree with him.

But as always, I'm interested in what people are thinking. Because the beliefs of the people shape their political reactions. Reality matters little in this regard, it's all about perception.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Im not sure thats not the right prioirity. Its difficult to eliminate poverty quickly, (leaving aside means that create more problems in the long run) Discrimination, however, creates a sense of anger, and humiliation, beyond structural poverty. Again, from what I hear via the press, is more anger against racism, than about povery per se. And racism is a powerful denial of the basis of the French ideal (as it is of the American ideal) however nothing in the French ideal promises an abolition of poverty.

Well, I'm not talking about priorities here. I'm talking about issues on his agenda.

Even Chirac-Villepin's agenda is much broader, because it involves all those issues (OTOH, Chirac-Villepin are weak willed, and they won't hurt their Nimby voters or their lower-tax voters for the sake of solving a problem)

The left's agenda is the broadest, because the left has an actual knowledge of the matter (with it being elected in the overwhelming majority of poor cities). The left's main problem, OTOH, is a disgust at the idea of using force.

[Odin]

OMG, I'm watching the news right now, Riots are breaking out in Brussels and Berlin.

[Colon™]

That's overblown. There were some minor disturbances, but nothing in the way of actual riots. It's not even obvious to me if the occurances were any worse than at regular nights.

[Odin]

Fox News:

[JohnT]

I thought this was the sort of thing that France bought an insurance policy against when they refused to support the war in Iraq.

That's gratitude for ya!

[Starchild]

Originally posted by Odin
OMG, I'm watching the news right now, Riots are breaking out in Brussels and Berlin.

Who's reporting that? No word of disturbances elsewhere in my particular section of European media.