Immigrant Riots

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Winston
Chemical Ollie,

Public news media, TV and radio, are notorious here for their bias and lopsided reporting, not least on issues dealing with minorities. That's really their only claim to being special, that and the fact they'll never admit as much even in the face of overwhelming documentation.

They certainly don't admit errors with any regularity as you claim. They move on to molding the next piece of political correct 'news' in their own skilled manner.

If that's your opinion, show me a corporate media source that's not even worse?

[Winston]

Originally posted by Colon

Now you need to make a careful distinction. If you say they're detached from the French mainstream, you're spot on. However, if you say that those youth have the same life-style as their ancestors in the country of origin you couldn't be more wrong. One of the biggest problems is exactly their lack of roots. They're alien to the country of origin, knowing of it as little more than a country were they spend holidays and where they got relatives living. However, at the same time they're 2nd class citizens in the country were they've been born, or at least have spend most of their life-time, and get to be called "foreigners".

Agreed. And might I add, well put.

[DanS]

.

[DanS]

Originally posted by Colon
That's what "we" do Dan. We call people foreigners, vreemdelingen, fremdarbeiters, l'etrangéres, regardless of how many generations they've been here.

Uggghhh. Y'all have issues! (Although, to hear spiffor tell it, the French are not supposed to make such distinctions.)

[Winston]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
If that's your opinion, show me a corporate media source that's not even worse?

We don't have corporate media here. As for not being worse than state-run media in the respect we're concentrating on, just take your pick. Any pick.

If it is your opinion that state-run media are the most reliable, trustworthy, unbiased sources imaginable, you could do well to look up a therapist, be he corporate or government-approved.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Winston


We don't have corporate media here. As for not being worse than state-run media in the respect we're concentrating on, just take your pick. Any pick.

If it is your opinion that state-run media are the most reliable, trustworthy, unbiased sources imaginable, you could do well to look up a therapist, be he corporate or government-approved.

If you want something worse, there's always indymedia.org and similar sites. Be they ultra-leftist or neo-fascist

If you want something better, well, you're the one claiming public media sucks, so I'm still waiting for your alternative.

And, we DO have corporate media. Lots of it. Any newspaper belongs to some corporation, big or small. And they are normally very open with their editorial bias (socialist, liberal, conservative, etc). I don't know about Denmark, but In Sweden we also have TV 3 and TV 4 reporting news. TV3 is mostly nonsense with Paris Hilton and such crap topping the headlines, while TV 4 is decent, but still not as good as the public TV1 and TV2. Then we have commercial radio stations, but they don't have their own news reporters, they rely fully on external news agencies.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Does not the image of the Cites as havens of criminality add to the difficulty of combating racism and discrimination?

I think so. As I tried to explain in a pots adressed to Laz, there is a blend of racial and class hate. The cités suffer from near-constant stigma, as they're only mentioned on TV when something bad happens.
For example, I'm in contact with the next town, which has the most risky cité of the district. My contacts told me that TF1's cameras had come on the previous night, expecting that the crap would hit the fan (they were right). They never go to that place, or to the rest of the town, in any other occurence.

As a result of this mediatic stigma (nothing happens in the cités but bad things), a great many people do have an image of the cités as an hellhole. The young inhabitants suffer from stigma as a result (especially when you consider that there is an accent and a clothing particular to the cités' youth).

Has not Sarkosy himself been in the forefront of such policies as limited "affirmative action" etc to combat the direct effects of discrimination - it seems that his approach is to both fight discrimination (using unorthodox means) and to fight crime and hooliganism.

Indeed, he is at the forefront of affirmative action. OTOH, Chirac is at the forefront of fighting against common racism (it is supposed to be one of his top priority policies).

However, Sarkozy had contributed to install a climate where a specific discrimination is even worse: discrimination in the hands of the police. Sarkozy's heavy-handedness resulted in a bunch of new policemen, generally inexperienced and badly trained, who bnehave like cowboys toward the Cités' youth. I've read or seen testimonies which are terrible in this regard. And, the police is the main contact of these youngsters to the outside world and to the authorities, with school (which doesn't discriminate on race).
The "cowboy" behaviour is strengthened by the fact that Sarkozy nearly always supports his troops. Even though there are strict written rules against abuse, many policemen agree that the climate under Sarkozy made them feel more at ease using more direct and brutal methods. And the amount of registered abuse actually increased.
As a result, the young practically experienced an increased feeling of injustice and discrimination.

Im not sure (from what I can gather from the press here) that the hate the rioters have for Sarkosy is shared by all immigrants, and isnt rather resentment at his attacks on the gang dominance of the Cites.

I'm currently working as a construction worker, and several colleagues are actually immigrants (and adults) who live in places where the crap has hit the fan. I admit my probe is small (something like 6 people), but nobody supports Sarkozy. Today, one of my colleagues even told me he was sure that all the arrested teens were innocent, and that the riots are actually done by one small group that is paid to do it.

So, I sure don't have an actual poll with me. But my first impression is that Sarkozy is getting utterly unpopular among the populations of the cité, even among those who don't riot.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Winston


Ok then. Thanks for telling me what I think.

Can I PM you sometime if I happen to forget what it is?

Nice way of avoiding the actual issue.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Winston
Lazarus and the Gimp, would you please proceed to take your incompetent stabs at me in plain English? You're making even less sense than usual.

Sure thing.

When you greet a perfectly civilised question with "get a clue", expect to be called an arsehole in the real world. Parading yourself as some kind of victim in the aftermath looks a bit weak, frankly. It makes little odds to me, because I greatly enjoy slinging insults at you, but I've still got enough lingering traces of humanity to offer you that piece of advice in case you're genuinely confused on the subject. In case you're just a sad and lonely little man, in fact.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Or maybe we have a group of criminal gangs rioting, cause the police are attempting to reenter the no go zones, where theyve had the ability to engage in criminal activity unmolested.

I don't think the movement would be so broad, and I don't think it would have spread the way it did, if it was the case.

Mafias, like any business, actually need stability to strive. And there was no real change in the police policies before the start of the riots.

The first night of riots, concentrated only in one city, is not the first nor the last time it happened. However, the "scum" phrase gave it a huge echo, as well as the tear gas grenade in the mosque.

Besides, these riots will undoubtedly result in an increased police presence in the cités. It's not like anybody wants such a hotbed of potential trouble right in our territory, right next to the main cities. Even though the mafias will probably find arrangements in such a situation, it might not be as easy to work than when things were calmer.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Colon
Now you need to make a careful distinction. If you say they're detached from the French mainstream, you're spot on. However, if you say that those youth have the same life-style as their ancestors in the country of origin you couldn't be more wrong. One of the biggest problems is exactly their lack of roots. They're alien to the country of origin, knowing of it as little more than a country were they spend holidays and where they got relatives living. However, at the same time they're 2nd class citizens in the country were they've been born, or at least have spend most of their life-time, and get to be called "foreigners".

Spot on

Except that in France, they aren't called so much "foreigners" but rather "Arabs" or "Blacks", or the PC term being "person of North-African origin"

[Spiffor]

BTW, Colon, I must congratualte you on your ability to make an interesting post despite replying to Dan's trolling.

You are proving that garbage in doesn't always lead to garbage out

[Winston]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp

Lazarus and the Gimp, would you please proceed to take your incompetent stabs at me in plain English? You're making even less sense than usual.

Sure thing.

When you greet a perfectly civilised question with "get a clue", expect to be called an arsehole in the real world. Parading yourself as some kind of victim in the aftermath looks a bit weak, frankly. It makes little odds to me, because I greatly enjoy slinging insults at you, but I've still got enough lingering traces of humanity to offer you that piece of advice in case you're genuinely confused on the subject. In case you're just a sad and lonely little man, in fact.

I see. And how about explaining the post I was referring to, you know the one from you that went before the above quote. I'll take you by the hand here and let you in on a little secret. It went something like,

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp

And here's a case study. Look out, Winston! Immigrants might be reading this!

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were trying your very best to make me out to be some kind of despicable racist, even though I think you'll have a hard time backing up with fact that particular misconception of yours. Not that this has ever seemed to hold you back from infesting these forums with your vitriolic nonsense and crummy personal attacks.

I have to say that getting rid of some of the ghost visions regarding other people that seem to be lingering in your tiny little head would seem like a better use of your time.

[DanS]

Originally posted by Spiffor
despite replying to Dan's trolling.

I'm being unfairly maligned.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I don't think the movement would be so broad, and I don't think it would have spread the way it did, if it was the case.

Mafias, like any business, actually need stability to strive. And there was no real change in the police policies before the start of the riots.

The first night of riots, concentrated only in one city, is not the first nor the last time it happened. However, the "scum" phrase gave it a huge echo, as well as the tear gas grenade in the mosque.

Does anyone have the actual scum quote(in French and in English, SVP?) And the context? I saw a claim made that he was just responding to some locals complaining about crime.


It should also be noted that there were apparently regular car burnings before the riots started.


Im not saying its all criminal gangs - it sounds like a general cycle of crime, police brutality, and local sensitivty. And by the way, yes, these are similar issues to what we had in the states with riots in black neighborhoods back in the '60s. The direct concession on police was the establishment of citizen review boards (to examine specific complaints of police brutality) in many cities (varied by city, as we dont have a centralized national police force) However police brutality certainly didnt end - I think its an inevitable accompaniment to police work, to some degree, in areas with similar conditions. A range of social changes, (some of which were already under way) helped to calm the riots - ultimately though it didnt calm crime - middle class folks (both white and black) simply moved away (the geography of French cities, with the middle classes in the center makes that more difficult, IIUC) crime was finally only really addressed with a range of new techniques, including neighborhood policying, growing toughness on "minor" crimes, etc.

Even if Sarkozy made an overheated statement, and has been less than ideal in controlling police brutality, I dont see any French leaders who have as broad a vision of the problem or determination to solve it.