"That's so gay" - enough to get twelve-year-olds suspended

[Asher]

I'm confused how people can be so stupid.

Argue until you're blue in the face (or if you're really dense, continue asking for 'proof' about the origin of the term), it won't change the fact that homosexuals find using a term (which also happens to mean their sexuality) as being very insulting.

Not only this, but to gay teenagers growing up in an already terrible environment (jr high, highschool), it subtly continues to equate "gay" to be a bad thing.

There is absolutely NO reason we need to use "gay" as an insult, and we SHOULD discourage it.

Anyone who says otherwise is a moron and/or a bigot.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
So you don't have any proof? Duly noted...

Since you've not offered any rational alternative to its origin, your argument means diddly-squat.

[Drake Tungsten]

Since you've not offered any rational alternative to its origin, your argument means diddly-squat.

Agathon has and his theory has just as much proof behind it as yours...

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Agathon
I said so in the previous post. I think it is much more like "nigga" than people realise. Let's not exaggerate - this is a very mild insult.

Except that, as I pointed out twice, Nigga is the exact opposite scenario.

For example, if I saw the pink car with the Julio Iglesias airhorn I mentioned before. I'd say, "that's pretty gay", and I would primarily mean, "that's pretty silly". Teens have picked up on that use and turned it into a word roughly equating to "lame".

No one is denying that the use of the word gay in this context is meaning "lame." Jesus, that' exactly what we're arguing about! The use of a word that is most commonly used as an identifying label for a group being co-opted to mean something bad.

I think it is ridiculous and mean to pick on teens for using their own slang, especially when no real harm is intended by it. Maori people in NZ used to use "honky" in a similar way (e.g. your "honky" car - meaning "your lame underpowered Japanese sedan") - no white person I know was deeply offended.

Since "honky" wasn't a word whites used to describe themselves, this isn't comparable, now is it? Did the term originate specifically to compare the lame cars to white people?

[Drake Tungsten]

Anyone who says otherwise is a moron and/or a bigot.

Well, we've stooped to name-calling, have we? It appears the day is ours...

[Ben Kenobi]

it subtly continues to equate "gay" to be a bad thing.

Asher:

That's the second time you posted something along these lines. This is what the whole debate is about is it not? It's not about insulting gay people, its about expressing disapproval for anything that gay people do.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Since you've not offered any rational alternative to its origin, your argument means diddly-squat.

Agathon has and his theory has just as much proof behind it as yours...

Agathon's theory still relies on the origin being one of mocking homosexuals, now doesn't it?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

I'd like to see your own support for this claim. You first stated it as a theory and now you are asserting it as fact...nice leap! But it doesn't hold up, because when the phrase came into use, it wasn't just effeminate behavior that people despised in homosexuals--it was their very nature. The term is broadly cast at gays--it doesn't single out fairies or fags or whatever term you want to make for the effeminate men. And it developed in a time period when the stereotype of the fairy was already known to be false.

The last sentence is part of my claim. You want my support for it?

Can't you see that wishy-washy effeminate behaviour is silly (even in women)? You have noted that the stereotype of the fairy is known to be false of gay people - I know that. But the name for that stereotype is still "gay" - there is a fork in the meaning of the term here occasioned by the recognition that the stereotype is not true of homosexuals. I'd argue that the mild nature of the teen insult means that the teens are picking up on "gay" from the second fork - silly effeminate, etc. If they were trying to use it along the lines of "***" it would be a much deadlier insult, but it isn't. Case closed.

At any rate, being a bit older, I can distinctly remember in middle school that calling someone "gay" was often accompanied by calling them "***" and "queer." Gee, nope, must not mean homosexuals at all.

So can I, but I've noticed that things have changed. No teen-ager who wanted to insult a homosexual would use "gay", they wouldn't even use "queer" or "fairy" because these are a bit old and quaint. "***" is still verboten though.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Well, we've stooped to name-calling, have we? It appears the day is ours...

I'm not calling anyone names in specific, but if people continue to put forth incredibly stupid arguments I think it's safe to call them morons.

Such as telling millions of people that we can continue using a word and that they shouldn't be offended by it. The person with such an argument clearly doesn't understand that people WILL continue to be offended by it, regardless, and it also isn't clear from the context.

Gay is used both as a catch-all insult and as a description of sexual orientation these days. Idiots can argue that they are completely separate, but they're obviously not -- it's the same stupid word.

And since we don't know exactly where it came from, and nobody will ever know, gay people will continue to assume it's because of the sexuality (which logically makes the most sense).

[mindseye]

Agathon, if you go back through your logically-challenged arguments and replace "gay" with "nigger-rigged" you might get the point.

On second thought, you probably wouldn't.


Where is David Floyd? I had this exact same argument with him in OT about two years ago. Same imperviousness to logic.

[Drake Tungsten]

Agathon's theory still relies on the origin being one of mocking homosexuals, now doesn't it?

No, it involves the mocking of absurd stereotypes.

[Boris Godunov]

mindseye, we brought up that point with the "Jew" phrase, but they repeatedly ignored it, because it doesn't compute to their illogic.

[Drake Tungsten]

I'm not calling anyone names in specific, but if people continue to put forth incredibly stupid arguments I think it's safe to call them morons.

I don't see why mine and Agathon's arguments are "stupid". We're saying that one of the commonly accepted meanings of "gay" is as a synonym of "lame" and has no relations to the sexual meaning of "gay". No one has disproved this. Where's the stupidity?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Except that, as I pointed out twice, Nigga is the exact opposite scenario.

So it's similar in some respects, different in others. Big deal.

No one is denying that the use of the word gay in this context is meaning "lame." Jesus, that' exactly what we're arguing about! The use of a word that is most commonly used as an identifying label for a group being co-opted to mean something bad.

Good.

Since "honky" wasn't a word whites used to describe themselves, this isn't comparable, now is it? Did the term originate specifically to compare the lame cars to white people?

"Gay" wasn't a word that gays used to describe themselves, but they do now. Similarly, "honky" is used by many white NZers. Calling a car a "honky" car is a subtle dig at white people, but it is a mild and friendly dig using a word that was formerly much stronger.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by mindseye
Agathon, if you go back through your logically-challenged arguments and replace "gay" with "nigger-rigged" you might get the point.

On second thought, you probably wouldn't.

Well you are obviously too dopey to see that two words might have different histories and thus your case is a false analogy.