"That's so gay" - enough to get twelve-year-olds suspended

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

You're still utterly missing the point...it's still a derogatory way of using the word. When a gay person hears someone referring to something bad as "gay," it reinforces the notion that people think gay=bad.

When a gay person hears someone refer to something midly crap (let's not confuse it by saying "bad") as gay and thinks that it reinforces the notion that homosexuals are bad, they are misunderstanding the meaning of the term. The hearer does not own the meaning of the term. The meaning of the term is fixed by its normal use in the speech community, not by you. What you are essentially arguing is that a word doesn't mean what it actually means, and that is absurd.

People use "gay" in this new way, no offence is meant to homosexuals, get over it.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Asher
The problem is, using sexuality (or race, or religion, or anything else like that) as an insult is INHERENTLY offensive, regardless of if the person is intending to insult you or not.

It's such a simple thing, you'd think more people would get it. Duh.

[Drake Tungsten]

People use "gay" in this new way, no offence is meant to homosexuals, get over it.

Exactly.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
It isn't being used as an insult. It has developed a new meaning.

This is the problem.

It has NOT developed a new meaning. The new meaning is to be "stupid, unacceptable". Where was the word derived from??

The sexuality.

How is this not offensive??

I suppose you think every time a person says something is "lame" they are insulting the physically handicapped...

Lame, as it's always been defined, isn't restricted to the physically handicapped. It means "weak or ineffective", literally, so yeah -- things CAN be called lame without making any reference to the handicapped.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

Intent isn't what matters most, interpretation is.

Bullsh*t. This would mean that all those loonies who hear some insult in everything that's said to them would be justified.

Contemporary use is what matters - that is what fixes the meanings of terms. People who don't keep up with this are just setting themselves up to be offended.

Perhaps you would like to suggest that the meanings of terms is something else than what contemporary use uses them to signify. I can't see any other alternative.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
People use "gay" in this new way, no offence is meant to homosexuals, get over it.

Alright then.

So it's okay if we start using Jew as a catch-all phrase, as long as we all think it has nothing to do with Jewish people in specific?

Agathon, how can you honestly think that? I'd think a professor of philosophy would be a little more intellectual than what you display on Apolyton.

[Lincoln]

The origin of the word is rather obvious really. Homosexuals were having a gay time with their particular sexual prefference. The term was shortened by the community to simply 'gay'. Then the abbrecviated form came into use. People can still say that they are having a gay time but that is like saying that a certain attractive woman was properly reared. That is more correct than saying "raised" but it is not more discriptive (unless she really did have a proper rear.

[Asher]

Hey guys, do me a favor and define "gay" for everyone then.

Basically, you guys are arguing that in the past 10-15 years or so, a new definition has emerged that makes it completely inoffensive to gay people.

I seriously cannot fathom how anyone could think that's not insulting.

The fact that virtually every gay person on here is TELLING you that it IS offensive should be an even bigger clue.

And telling those gay people not to be offended by it doesn't work. It's offensive because an insult derived from their sexuality is so mainstream now everyone uses it without thinking.

It cuts far deeper than most of you guys care to think. Obviously you don't care to think a lot, anyway.

[Drake Tungsten]

It has NOT developed a new meaning. The new meaning is to be "stupid, unacceptable". Where was the word derived from??

The sexuality.

It would be fabulous if you would prove this assertion...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
It would be fabulous if you would prove this assertion...

DUHHH????

Where the hell do you THINK the insult comes from?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Agathon


Bullsh*t. This would mean that all those loonies who hear some insult in everything that's said to them would be justified.

Contemporary use is what matters - that is what fixes the meanings of terms. People who don't keep up with this are just setting themselves up to be offended.

Perhaps you would like to suggest that the meanings of terms is something else than what contemporary use uses them to signify. I can't see any other alternative.

Notice I said interpretation matters "more," not "entirely."

The problem is that the "contemporary use" you cite is by no means ubiquitous, as this incident shows. I would challenge you to use this kind of language in most work places. We'll see what happens. Do you think it would be appropriate for a teacher to talk like this in front of students in class?

Part of the furor over it is the battle over it's "contemporary use." I certainly don't know many people who use it in their everyday speech, and I live in a city where people say "****" in every other sentence.

The fact is that gays, among others, object to it's "contemporary use." Why? Because the phrase was derived as an insult to homosexuals, and still is implicitely so. To allow it to settle into "contemporary use" is to give a victory to those who coined the slur in the first place.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

Where was the word derived from??

The sexuality.

No. I would argue that this use is derived from the stereotype of the "fairy" which is now rightly ridiculed by gays and non-gays alike. It is indirectly derived from the sexuality but that misses the whole point. In short it is a piece of insulting language that has been tamed and is now used ironically, just like young black people have reclaimed the word "nigga".

It has NOT developed a new meaning. The new meaning is to be "stupid, unacceptable"

Wow.. "it has NOT" developed a new meaning, which makes it odd that you mention the new meaning in the very next sentence.

[Asher]

Sorry, I'm going to go take a break before I do something stupid.

If Apolyton, a haven of generally intelligent people, is this backwards it really puts a damper on my outlook on life.

I'm really disappointed in almost everyone here. People still obviously don't care and don't understand how offensive the little things are, and how that can affect gay kids.

Whatever, who am I to think we should all be above that. It'll never happen.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
Wow.. "it has NOT" developed a new meaning, which makes it odd that you mention the new meaning in the very next sentence.

I suppose I should have realized I was dealing with you.

I should have put the second "new meaning" in quotes -- does that help you?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Agathon
No. I would argue that this use is derived from the stereotype of the "fairy" which is now rightly ridiculed by gays and non-gays alike. It is indirectly derived from the sexuality but that misses the whole point. In short it is a piece of insulting language that has been tamed and is now used ironically, just like young black people have reclaimed the word "nigga".

The illogic of this is so obvious it hurts.

Nigga = method of softening an offensive term, ******, into one that is positive. It now means someone who is a good friend, a fraternal spirit.

Gay = method of taking a word that previously was inoffensive to homosexuals and making it offensive, by equating gays to stupid, bad things. And that's precisely why the phrase came into use.

Accepting it as common usage is condoning the origin of the phrase and equating homosexuals to bad, stupid things. Pretty simple.