"That's so gay" - enough to get twelve-year-olds suspended

[Drake Tungsten]

Argh!

Seriously, I'm out of here.

I'm dealing with ****ing morons who want to justify their casual use of "gay" as an insult because they don't know any better.

Gay people are here telling them we're offended by it, but they continue to insist it's alright.

You are all seriously disgusting individuals. Scum.

Ohh, boo ****ing hoo...

Go ahead and leave; you aren't adding anything to the debate anyway.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Agathon
My logic is "that was then, this is now". The use of the word gay as a term of mild insult is very recent. We are old men, Boris. Teens have new slang.

Not so recent to me, as I already stated I can remember it being used as such when I was in highschool and middle school.

Sure it's simpler, but it doesn't really provide an explanation. You seem now to be saying that teens magically decided to use the term "gay". Perhaps they did, but that flies in the face of the fact that most changes in linguistic usage are evolutionary rather than instantaneous.

You're just making up that I've said something I haven't. When did I assert teens just magically started using it? In fact, I gave by thoughts on how it originated--at a time when being gay was viewed as an overwhelmingly bad thing, it of course was a terrible insult to call someone or something "gay," as that meant you were either homosexual or as bad as homosexuals. It's that simple.

And it isn't reinforcing cultural notions amongst teens, who know very well what they mean.

Gee, since you've never been a gay teenager who is bombarded with these notions, I'll just have to take your opinion here as being woefully ignorant.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Osweld

Huh. You must have very selective reading. Did you not see all those posts explaining to you that IT'S A MATTER OF INTERPRETATION?
s?

This has been dispensed with. The meaning of a word is not its interpretation; it is is normal use by a speech community, which can change.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
The point you are missing is that society as a whole has settled on a new meaning for "gay". Just as my group of friends has decided that "jewish" or "white" can have meanings different from their ethnic ones, society (primarily the society of the youth) have decided that "gay" can be used as a synonym for "lame", in addition to meaning "homosexual" and "happy". Contemporary society has agree on a new usage of the word "gay" and it's futile for you and Asher to try and stop it. The word "gay" has developed yet another meaning. You may not like it, but you'll have to get used to it.

This is bull****, because society has done NO such thing. It is not commonly used EXCEPT in teenage society. In the vast majority of the English-speaking world, it is an unacceptable use of the word. Once you get beyond the narrow confines of your own teenage world and Nebraska, you'll learn this. The entire reason this kid was punished is because MOST people don't think that usage is acceptable in a school environment.

And you still ducked the point about the "Jew" argument.

We certainly shouldn't be punishing kids for using the slang of their peer group...

So kids should be able to say "****" in school with impunity? Good logic!

At any rate, I already gave my opinion about the punishment.

[monkspider]

Hmm, pretty good debate, aside from the name-calling. I think Ag's strongest point is the "contemporary use" arguement, which is very strong. But at the end of the day, I find my self siding with Boris and co. The "Jew" or "******-rigged" arguement is hard to ignore. Props to Ag though.

[Drake Tungsten]

It is not commonly used EXCEPT in teenage society. In the vast majority of the English-speaking world, it is an unacceptable use of the word. Once you get beyond the narrow confines of your own teenage world and Nebraska, you'll learn this. The entire reason this kid was punished is because MOST people don't think that usage is acceptable in a school environment.

I'm a 23 year old college senior in the part of the US that is the absolute last to catch on to new cultural developments, yet everyone in my peer group uses "gay" as a synonym for "lame". This is a widespread meaning, whether you realize it or not.

Watch an episode of South Park, for god's sake, and then try to tell me that the new meaning of gay isn't mainstream...

[Boris Godunov]

Monkie, when did you become pageant judge?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

Does it embarass you that the chief dolt on Apolyton puts you to absolute shame?

No it makes me laugh that he thinks he does.

Nonsense, as a member of the "speech community" (i.e. teens) in which it is used, I can tell you that the vast majority of people assume "gay" to refer to "gay people", and not any of the high-strung examples you've pathetically tried to assemble here.

Wow! What a coincidence. They're not two different meanings, it's the same meaning with two different interpretations.

So "lame" meaning stupid, means the same as "lame" meaning "can't walk properly" but we interpret it differently? So anyone who reads the Concise Oxford Dictionary and sees the three separate meanings given for lame are in fact the same meaning but we interpret it differently. Now that's lame (meaning 2). If I interpret "lame" as meaning "stupid" when someone else meant "can't walk properly" that just makes me wrong, because that's not what the speaker meant.

I hate to break it to you Asher, but words (as in combinations of letters or sounds) come to have different meanings based on historically evolved usage. This is what has happened with gay.

Morons and bigots interpret the sexuality as stupid and bad, and use it as an insult. Next thing you know, everyone uses the word as an insult casually and it's suddenly a completely separate word!

Da da da da DAH, BAM BAM, BAM BAM.

I already said why I thought this was wrong.

[Ben Kenobi]

Gee, since you've never been a gay teenager who is bombarded with these notions, I'll just have to take your opinion here as being woefully ignorant.

That's a feeble argument to fall back on, Boris.

You want the approval of society, you have to show us how the insult affects you. Don't recoil and say, you can't understand, try to show us what you have been through.

Now I agree, there are hateful terms for homosexuals, I'm not going to say them. However, 'gay' is not one of them.

[mindseye]

The point you are missing is that society as a whole
(...)
kids for using the slang of their peer group

Uh, which is it - society as a whole, or teenage slang?

You may not like it, but you'll have to get used to it.

So, your position is that offensive slurs should be simply accepted? Are you saying that terms like "******-rig", "jew" and "gyp" - in their derogatory senses - should not be discouraged from use in public venues such as schools? I would really like to know your answer to this question, as that is exactly what you seem to be saying.

[Drake Tungsten]

Props to Ag though.

Yes, props to Agathon; our side would be finished if it weren't for him, as I can't be arsed to care that much about this debate. I keep having flashbacks of the last time Asher called me a "bigot" for using a common term...

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
I'm a 23 year old college senior in the part of the US that is the absolute last to catch on to new cultural developments, yet everyone in my peer group uses "gay" as a synonym for "lame". This is a widespread meaning, whether you realize it or not.

Well, you have to forgive me for the age mistake, I was going by behavior.

I live in a city which is probably at the forefront of any trend, and which draws people from all over the country. I have friends here from all walks of live and every region, and NONE of them use "gay" in that manner. I've only heard in that way a few times, and once a coworker was chastised by her middle-aged white boss for using it because, "that's not appropriate language."

Watch an episode of South Park, for god's sake, and then try to tell me that the new meaning of gay isn't mainstream...

Southpark caters to...youth? ANd didn't I say that's the only group it is used in? Do you see shows on network TV depicting anyone using that form of the word? Of course not. Why? Because most people find it offensive. Citing a show designed to offend everyone imaginable as an example of why the word shouldn't be considered offensive is pretty, erm, lame.

[Drake Tungsten]

Uh, which is it - society as a whole, or teenage slang?

Sorry for the unclear terminology. "Youth society" would be the best term; the new meaning of "gay" is in common usage amongst young people.

So, your position is that offensive slurs should be simply accepted?

No, my position is that "gay" isn't an offensive slur and anyone who considers it such is grossly misinterpreting the intent of the new meaning.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by obiwan18
That's a feeble argument to fall back on, Boris.

You want the approval of society, you have to show us how the insult affects you. Don't recoil and say, you can't understand, try to show us what you have been through.

Since I already explained the negative impact of this usage of the term on gay teens, I have to wonder at your reading skills.

And "gay" is an offensive term when it is used as a synonym for stupid/bad. That's what this debate is about.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Yes, props to Agathon; our side would be finished if it weren't for him, as I can't be arsed to care that much about this debate. I keep having flashbacks of the last time Asher called me a "bigot" for using a common term...

That's because you have no side, Agathon is a professional bull****ter. That's what philosophers these days do.

He takes incredibly stupid and inept arguments, tries to paint them as valid and acceptable. It's what he does for a living.

And I didn't call you a bigot, I said people in your positions are either bigots or morons.

I don't believe you're a bigot, I just think you're incapable of understanding it.

obi:

Now I agree, there are hateful terms for homosexuals, I'm not going to say them. However, 'gay' is not one of them.

Are you kidding?
'gay' is not hateful.

Gays do consider it hateful that some idiots like to use a word (conveniently matching their sexual orientation) as an insult. THAT is hateful. The word itself is not, but using the word as an insult for everything is a hateful concept in and of itself.

I realize you don't think it's valid that we can say you wouldn't understand. But it's damn true. You have no idea what a gay teenager goes through, and the people here who do have some idea of what a gay teenager goes through is telling you guys, point blank, that it is both offensive and hurtful even though it's not directly intended to insult homosexuals by most people these days.

You guys can't seem to accept that. You want to ignore it. Why? I don't know. Maybe you guys can't admit you're wrong about this, maybe you guys are just used to saying it and want to convince yourself you're not hurting anyone by it.

You are.

I apologize for getting a bit racy about it, but it's a very sensitive subject to me.