Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn has just been shot

[Saint Marcus]

thanks locutus and oldenbarnevelt for the info on killer(s)

[Mercator]

I find it absolutely terrible.
I'm am rather "left", politically, and generally didn't agree with what he said, although he did say some seriously good things too. He was a moderate right-wing, mostly populist politician...

I do not agree with the views that the other parties or the media are somehow responsible for this. Whoever did this was a someone with a severely ****ed up mind.
My first thoughts are that the killer is an extreme leftist, unfortunately, probably somewhat like those people who go to anti-globalisation demonstrations purely to make a mess.

What I'm afraid of now is that his death will cause all sorts of riots, partly directed against the parties that were most against him. Perhaps even more, an equally ****ed up mind decides one of their leaders has to pay for it and decides to kill one of them.

The party leaders, by the way, have decided to stop the election campaigns. The ministers are still discussing whether to postpone the elections altogether.
I'm not sure whether they should... I think we certainly need a little time to get back to our senses.

[Mercator]

Ah yes... the reason why a person like Janmaat wasn't shot, is basically because his party was generally rather laughable and never looked like having any influence whatsoever. Pim Fortuyn led a party that was going to caue a major landslide... I think I saw a newspaper that said the latest polls indicated he would be the biggest party.

[Adam Smith]

Would the US equivalent of this be the attempted assassination of George Wallace?

Mercator:

I do not agree with the views that the other parties or the media are somehow responsible for this.

IIRC, in one of the hate crimes threads some posters argued that right-wing politicians were somehow responsible becuase they created an atmosphere in which such crimes were tolerated or accepted if not actively encouraged. Does the same apply here, with the shoe on the other foot?

(I dont buy the argument in either case)

[Buck Birdseed]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
right wing doesn't mean anti-gay

An anti-gay person would be considered right-wing though. It's probably more accurate to say that there is no contradiction between being left-wing on some issues and right-wing on some, it's all about power distribution anyway.

[Ned]

Saint Marcus, Let me extend my sympathies to you and the Dutch people. Regardless of whether you agreed with Mr. Fortuyn, assassination has no place in democracies. We lost two Kennedies in recent memory, and had attempts on Wallace, Ford Reagan and Bush Sr. If one counts attempts to crash planes into the White House, attempts were also made on Clinton and our current president.

What really surprises me though is the rioting at the Hague. Whenever something like this has happened in the U.S. the nation pulled together. We seemed to recognize that the gunman was a lunatic acting alone, except in the case of Saddam trying to kill Bush. The implications of the rioting is that the Fortuyn supporters suspect that this was not simply the act of a single derranged individual. Now that is disturbing.

Ned

[Saint Marcus]

Thank you Ned


To explain the rioting. Pim Fortuyn's party is a political outcast. Fortuyn wasn't a universally loved Kennedy. Fortuyn had his enemies, and his followers hold his enemies, all of them, resonsable. That includes the media and other political parties. Very sad indeed

[lightblue]

About the gay/right wing thing. He's not an US rightwing politician, who are almost exclusively christian conservative. He was more Libertarian if anything.

[Saint Marcus]

Libertarians are right wing here. (pro free trade, pro tax cuts, against social security, etc)

christian conservatives are centre. (pro christian values, pro social security, against the 24 hour economy)

different from the states

[Mercator]

IIRC, in one of the hate crimes threads some posters argued that right-wing politicians were somehow responsible becuase they created an atmosphere in which such crimes were tolerated or accepted if not actively encouraged. Does the same apply here, with the shoe on the other foot?

Hardly. Although actually Pim Fortuyn himself said a while ago that the other parties would be responsible if something happened to him.
But I don't think people are really rioting because of the current government and how they might have caused this because of wrong policies or something.
I think they're mostly just upset, think the leaders of the other parties and the media have treated him badly (by comparing him to extreme right-wingers, or simply arguing with him and not liking him) since the campaigns started...

And more about the riots. There are lots of people going to his house with flowers etc. or to the city hall of Rotterdam to sign the condolence register, and there are no problems there whatsoever.
AFAIK, the problems are limited to The Hague, and I've heard there were quite a few fans of "ADO Den Haag" among them. A footbal club renowned for their... erm... badly behaving fans, to put it mildly. So it may be most of these misbehaving people are just out there to cause some trouble for fun.

[Oldenbarnevelt]

Originally posted by Snapcase


An anti-gay person would be considered right-wing though.

This would imply that Castro, Mugabe, and generally most Third World socialists and communists (and many in the Western world) are right-wing.

It's probably more accurate to say that there is no contradiction between being left-wing on some issues and right-wing on some, it's all about power distribution anyway.

You ignore the fact that Fortuyn's homosexuality was never an issue in the political debate. Fortuyn never made even one concession on this subject, because no one asked him to do so.
The Netherlands is not your country with some minor differences -- it's a country with a history of its own, similar to your country in some respects, very different in others.

-

[Mercator]

Fortuyn wasn't a universally loved Kennedy.

Well, his party was rather popular. But he really was known to the general public only for the last 3 months or so, when he made some questionable statements in a newspaper interview, was thrown out of his party and created his own.

[Jon Miller]

I didn't think Kennedy was loved until after he was dead

Jon Miller

[Ecthy]

That doesn't apply to Schleyer though

[Saint Marcus]

my new avatar, until after the elections. thanks Mercator.