The Most Dominating Aircraft Ever?

[Felch]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Geting back to aircraft discussion, I can't believe people are dissing the Zero.

I can't believe you're still talking about it.

For a plane to be considered dominant, it would help if the country that used it did not suffer a total and utterly humiliating defeat. The Zero was a really good plane, but really good plane does not mean dominant. It was never able to soundly destroy allied air forces in large numbers, and by the end of the war, was being cut down from the skies in battles like the Marianas Turkey-shoot.

I think we need to establish parameters, and at least one parameter should be a high kill to loss ratio. They aren't the way to run a war, but numbers are a good way to examine performance and dominance.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
We interrupt this interesting thread for further slagging in the Serb/Chris sand pit fight. Do not adjust your sets.

Round 3!!!

I think we need to establish parameters, and at least one parameter should be a high kill to loss ratio. They aren't the way to run a war, but numbers are a good way to examine performance and dominance.

Finally, one man suggest a clever idea, I’ve already tried to bring this debate in numbers no one supported me. First we are talking about fighters only or not? If not then IL-2 is the most produced aircraft of WW2.

The "Flying Tank" of the Soviet Air Force, the Il-2 has the distinction of being the most produced aircraft in history at a total of 36,163.
(from Jane's Aircraft of World War II)

[Alexander's Horse]

That's only because the Soviets lacked imagination.

[Asher]

Jane sure was a busy lady.

[Felch]

Okay, another parameter is that the aircraft can't come from Serb's crappy country.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Felch X
Okay, another parameter is that the aircraft can't come from Serb's crappy country.

That's a given

[Serb]

Keep digging your head in a sand, SU have the most powerfull Air Forces at end of WW2.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Asher
Jane sure was a busy lady.

Lady?
John Frederick Thomas Jane, known to all as Fred T., was born in 1865 in Surrey, England,

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Serb
Keep digging your head in a sand, SU have the most powerfull Air Forces at end of WW2.

(we really need that rolling lol smilie)

[Asher]

Jane's a ladies name.
I don't care if he's male, she's always a woman...to me.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse




(we really need that rolling lol smilie)

You show complete ignorance of WW2 history.
And Russians don't have lack of imagination Il-2 have dozen of modifications as well as other Soviet planes like Yak, La, Tu and others.

[Alexander's Horse]

Next he'll be telling us the Soviet Union had the best strategic bombers

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Felch X


I can't believe you're still talking about it.

For a plane to be considered dominant, it would help if the country that used it did not suffer a total and utterly humiliating defeat. The Zero was a really good plane, but really good plane does not mean dominant. It was never able to soundly destroy allied air forces in large numbers, and by the end of the war, was being cut down from the skies in battles like the Marianas Turkey-shoot.

Sure, by the end of the war, the newer American planes had an advantage, but a bigger factor was the lack of skilled Japanese pilots. The Japanese never spend a lot of effort rescuing their downed pilots and as a result, by the end of the war there were very few decent pilots.

As for winning or losing the war, the Japanese were bound to lose eventually due to the massive size of the American economy. Add in the successful USN submarine victory, the lucky US victory at Midway that wiped out a big chunk of the IJN carrier force and no matter how good the Zero was, it would not have won the war single-handedly.

As for kill-loss ratios, that's a difficult measure to use given that the Japanese lacked skilled pilots and were willing to send up guys who did not have the training to survive regardless of the plane they were flying.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Next he'll be telling us the Soviet Union had the best strategic bombers

Of course, we’ve bombed Berlin in 1941.
In august 1941 when Nazi was on their way to Moscow, the wing of Soviet heavy bombers took off from airbase on Eizel island near Talin and made a successful bombing raid on Berlin. Planes flight about 1000 Km, made a successful bombing and every plane returned. It was shock for whole world. Bombing raids continued until middle of September. The only analog of such unique operation is Soviet bombing raids on Formoza made in 30s against Japanese. Or may by you gonna say that you have such operations? What was the operation range of your bombers?
Some air combats:
The quality of Japanese pilots: the Soviets rated it high. Boris Smirnov (one of Soviet aces of Spanish Civil War) said: "Japanese were more experienced than Italians and more aggressive than Germans". That's enought, isn't it?
The strike to Shanghai: on 2nd December 1937, Soviets bombers destroyed Japanese cruiser and damaged 6 another military ships.

The defence of Wuhan: on 29th April 1938, Soviet fighters shot down 21 Japanese planes, and on 31st May - 15 planes.

The strike to Formosa:
the very risky, but very succefull mission of Soviet Volunteer Group. Captain Fyodor Polynin was the commander of bomber group. Formosa made a formidable target. The distance from Hankou (a suburb of Wuhan nowadays) to Formosa is more than 1000kms, so the target was barely within the range of a twin-engined SB-2 bomber. The Japanese airfield was ringed by mountains and hard to approach. It would probably be defended by fighters and would surely be protected by flaks. On 23rd February 1938, 28 SB bombers flew at 13500-16500 feet to extend the range of the SB. The crews suffered from anoxia in the course of the long flight, since there were no oxygen masks available, but there was no alternative. The bombers passed the island to the north, turn south, and came down to 12000 feet with engines muffled to delude the Japanese. The bomber group then hit the target and ran for the coast. On the way across the strait, the bombers were at 6000 feet, and the crews were able to catch their breath a little before climbing to 12000 feet. There were no escort figthers, but the SB was a speedy plane; contemporary Japanese fighters were not able to catch it. But over the target even was no any air danger; moreover the Japanese had made no attempt at camouflage or dispersal. They seemed sure of their safety. Japanese AA artillery began to fire near the end, but too late. Much lighter SB bombers had already turned and headed for the Taiwan Strait, running flat out for the Chinese coast. In all, the Soviet planes dropped 2080 bombs. The raid was a shock for the Japanese. The air base at Taibei was out of action for a month. According to Chinese intelligence, about 40 planes were completely destroyed on the airfield, and a number of unassembled planes were also destroyed in their shipping containers. The hangars and a three-year store of fuel had burned. The Japanese government recalled the governor of Formosa, and the base commander was court-martialed and subsequently committed a suicide.

Mikado's birthday: 29th April 1939 Japanese sent 72 bombers to Khankow. There weren't any escort fighters and the Soviet pilots shot down 21 bombers.

3rd October 1939 capt. Kulishenko G.A. lead the strike to Hankow airbase. The Japanes lost 64 planes; 130 men were killed and 300 wounded.

Do you have bombers able to flight on distances about 1000Km? I suppose no. Enlighten me if I'm wrong.

[Case]

[QUOTE] [SIZE=1]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Next he'll be telling us the Soviet Union had the best strategic bombers

Originally posted by Serb
Do you have bombers able to flight on distances about 1000Km? I suppose no. Enlighten me if I'm wrong.

Good prediction Horse.

Serb, the Allies had heaps of fighters and bombers that could fly 1000 km. The B-17, B-24, B-25, B-26, B-29, Mustang, Lancaster, Mosquito to name just a few.

In fact, the Soviets first true strategic bomber, the Tu-4 Bull, which appeared well after WW2 was a direct copy of the B-29 Superfortress.

Also, I'd hardly compare the handful of Soviet raids of 1941 with the later 1000+ aircraft British and American raids on Berlin which were common from 1943 onwards